The Flat

Grasshopper

Grasshopper

Senior Jockey
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Messages
16,050
It's shite.

Discuss..........

Edit: OK, a little bit of context.

Seems to me that Flattie debate, in the main (and certainly lately), rages around abuse of pacemakers, horses that are not off, the effect of the draw (WTF??!!) or bent jockeys. And that's to ignore the actual direness of the spectacle.

Flatties seem to have only a forensic outlook about horse-racing's second code. There is very little passion - and who can blame you, given the drab nature of the fare on offer. I continue to be utterly amazed that anyone can give two tugs on a strangers helmet about this sport, but I'm willing to receive an education.

Some - please.......tell me what it's allure is.

Kind regards
Grass
 
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Grasshopper said:
Flatties seem to have only a forensic outlook about horse-racing's second code. There is very little passion - and who can blame you, given the drab nature of the fare on offer. I continue to be utterly amazed that anyone can give two tugs on a strangers helmet about this sport, but I'm willing to receive an education.

Some - please.......tell me what it's allure is.

Kind regards
Grass
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Well, lets take the long view shall we. Last year`s NH campaign was without question one of the most exciting on record. We then contrast that with a really mundane flat season with no star turns and rained off festivals. Thing is though what comes round goes round, I remember some breathtaking flat seasons in the 90s in particular - Peintre Celebre, Pilsudski and Swain all in the same year. Daylami and Royal Anthem battling it out in another. We had Kalanisi, DM, Giant`s Causeway, Sinndar, King`s Best and Montjeu all featuring in just one season in one magical summer in 2000. And yet by contrast we also had some really ropey NH seasons where the likes of Martha`s Son and Cool Dawn were the "champions" of their respective spheres. So, things change and who knows, a couple of years down the line animals of the standard of War of Attrition will be winning Gold Cup`s again - and we could yet get another season of half a dozen 130+ animals running in the summer.
 
Euro, I don't want a run down on champions past, and I don't want a comparison with the Jumps (there is none).

What I want is an explanation about what prompts Flatties to follow the code in the first place, given:

1. The spectacle is grim ("Woohoo! Look at that.......that horse ran in a straight line faster than that other horse....wow, amazing etc")
2. Some top jockeys are moody (allegedly, your honour)
3. The top-yard in Europe is apparently deploying less than corinthian tactics merely to prop-up a bloodstock business (or is it?)
4. Balls out of a hat can render hard graft and honest toil (insofar as form study qualifies) pointless in certain races at certain tracks

My original post was somewhat mischevious I'll grant you, but hand on heart, I can honestly say that I find 99.9% of Flat racing completely and utterly unappealing (arc and Ascot Gold Cup only just pass muster), and I'm merely trying to figure out why others should feel any different.
 
Contrary to the jumps fans who hate that flat horses come and go so quickly, I love the fact that a whole new batch of horses comes in every year and you get to watch them turn into superstars. I also love that they become the sires and dams of the champions that come along just a few years later and that the horses are the pinnacle of the breed; the fastest specimens that have ever existed.

Tied into this is the lure of the Classics. I love the Guineas. Love the Derby. Love the fact that these horses were being aimed at these one-off one-chance-only races from before they were even born. Love that they then have to go on and prove themselves against the best of those who did it the year before.

The internationalisation of flat racing is a big draw for me also. Keeping an eye on racing from Europe, the US, Dubai, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong etc. is as daunting as it is rewarding. I'll never forget getting up in the early hours to watch Makybe Diva's third Melbourne Cup or Falbrav run away with the Hong Kong Cup.

And whilst jumps fans understandably treat Cheltenham like some kind of sacred mass, I prefer that flat racing has an ever-evolving pattern of races which culminate in a set of high-stakes championship races run over the course of a couple of months right across the world. The best turf milers in the world run tomorrow. The best mile and a half horses run the weekend after. The best 2yos a couple of weeks after that and the best dirt horses a couple of weeks after that. But they're not so important that they are the be-all and end-all for their connections, becoming so big that they suck all the goodness from the rest of the season.

Just a few thoughts.
 
Grasshopper said:
What I want is an explanation about what prompts Flatties to follow the code in the first place, given:

1. The spectacle is grim ("Woohoo! Look at that.......that horse ran in a straight line faster than that other horse....wow, amazing etc")
2. Some top jockeys are moody (allegedly, your honour)
3. The top-yard in Europe is apparently deploying less than corinthian tactics merely to prop-up a bloodstock business (or is it?)
4. Balls out of a hat can render hard graft and honest toil (insofar as form study qualifies) pointless in certain races at certain tracks
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1. One can reduce all sports to that level. "22 men kicking a ball round a field - boring"
2. Tony McCoy is the moodiest cnut this side of Fallon.
3. Only temporary. O`Brien has had better strings and won less, because the competition was there.
4. Stick to the Group races and top quality handicaps.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Contrary to the jumps fans who hate that flat horses come and go so quickly, I love the fact that a whole new batch of horses comes in every year and you get to watch them turn into superstars. I also love that they become the sires and dams of the champions that come along just a few years later and that the horses are the pinnacle of the breed; the fastest specimens that have ever existed.

Tied into this is the lure of the Classics. I love the Guineas. Love the Derby. Love the fact that these horses were being aimed at these one-off one-chance-only races from before they were even born. Love that they then have to go on and prove themselves against the best of those who did it the year before.

The internationalisation of flat racing is a big draw for me also. Keeping an eye on racing from Europe, the US, Dubai, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong etc. is as daunting as it is rewarding. I'll never forget getting up in the early hours to watch Makybe Diva's third Melbourne Cup or Falbrav run away with the Hong Kong Cup.

And whilst jumps fans understandably treat Cheltenham like some kind of sacred mass, I prefer that flat racing has an ever-evolving pattern of races which culminate in a set of high-stakes championship races run over the course of a couple of months right across the world. The best turf milers in the world run tomorrow. The best mile and a half horses run the weekend after. The best 2yos a couple of weeks after that and the best dirt horses a couple of weeks after that. But they're not so important that they are the be-all and end-all for their connections, becoming so big that they suck all the goodness from the rest of the season.

Just a few thoughts.
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Well said.
 
Well said maybe, but the myth that there is no Jumps pattern is exactly that - a myth. It may not carry the name "Pattern" but there is one, and undeniably so.

Thanks Gareth for an erudite defence of the undefendable. :D

Euro, when I said "moody", I meant moody - knowharrimean? My beard will be long and grey before McCoy ever sees the inside of a court-house. ;)
 
I don't deny that there's a Jumps pattern, I just think - with a small number of exceptions - that it's treated like a very long set of Cheltenham preps.
 
A lot of horses are aimed specifically at Cheltenham and thats fair enough. It is the pinnacle of jumps racing in as much as the world cup is in football. It provides a setting for a friendly Anglo Irish rivalry which makes it so special. While Cheltenham obviously grabs the most headlines its unfair to treat such festivals as Leopardstown at Christmas and the Grand National meet in April as mere sideshows to the 2nd week in March
 
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One argument I've heard advanced as to why the jumps is a superior code is that "the flat is all about the money, there's no rivalry."

Surely that's akin to saying you'd rather see Scunthorpe slog it out with Hartlepool on some bog in the middle of nowhere than watch United v. Chelsea "because they have money."

Just doesn't stand up.
 
I think its more to do with the fact that money men can dominate flat racing and take home all the prizes. Subsequently because of the bloodlines they own or can afford to pay to get covered they will always be in a position to dominate through finances

Compare this to JP Mcmanus who has invested proportionally more than any other jumps owner and is yet to win the one race he wants more than any other, the Grand National, A race rich men can't buy
 
granger said:
I think its more to do with the fact that money men can dominate flat racing and take home all the prizes. Subsequently because of the bloodlines they own or can afford to pay to get covered they will always be in a position to dominate through finances
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Surely the likes of Speciosa and Sir Percy have proved that this is a bit of a straw-man argument IMO.
 
Not an easy question to answer (for me anyway). There are obviously bigger prices being paid at the top end of the market, but then again there is the potential for more financial success given the bloodstock industry.

If you look at the last few Gold Cup winners though, they're not exactly rags to riches stories are they? Obviously I don't know precisely how much was paid for Kauto Star, I know there was a substantial amount paid for Denman, War of Attrition and Best Mate. It doesn't compare directly to the amount being spent on yearlings in the flat game, but then again there is less potential financially of course. Relatively speaking, none of them were cheap anyway!

I couldn't answer your question with any confidence to be honest, but I would be very interested to hear other opinions. Comparing statistics would be interesting, though virtually impossible given the amount of future jumps stars that are sold privately from the point to pointing ranks.
 
Not exactly peanuts is it?

In terms of sheer acts of madness, I would rate JP shelling out £470,000 for Garde Champetre right up alongside anything Sheikh Mohamed has bought or even The Green Monkey.
 
Fear not Grassy is merely sulking over Hibbs,

His warning bar has just been raised to 99%, although he might get the odd delinquent saddo like Maruco or Cantoris to join his crusade, he is but a lone wolf who belongs to the wilderness and howls at the moon.

I tend to agree with Euro, I enjoy both codes. I prefer jumps as a spectacle, but make more money on the flat. There are other reasons why I prefer flat racing Grassy, but you can source those elsewhere :cool:
 
I make money backing on the flat, I don't over jumps so don't even look at it anymore. I'll watch Cheltenham but that's about it. I see the jumps as a medium for horses that are too slow to win good flat races.

You mention moody jockeys but then Dettori whether you love him or hate him is worth so much to the sport as a personality (don't want to sound like McCririck here).

I think as far as appealing to the "masses" and improving the interest in the sport then flat certainly does a better job with Royal Ascot, Newmarket Nights etc. However, the time of year that flat is staged does help in that respect as people would rather spend a sunny afternoon drinking Pimms and eating strawberries on the Knavesmire than huddling round the one radiator in the club bar at Wetherby sipping hot chocolate from a plastic cup.
 
Gamla Stan said:
I see the jumps as a medium for horses that are too slow to win good flat races.
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Hurdlers maybe but chasers are bred on totally different lines. By that rationale you could almost poo poo Yeats as just some plodder not fast enough to win a good contest over a mile.

The great thing about top class hurdling is to see animals like Istabraq or Make a Stand who were ordinary on the flat absolutely demolish faster horses over timber because hurdling never slowed them down.
 
By that rationale you could almost poo poo Yeats as just some plodder not fast enough to win a good contest over a mile.

which is exactly what he is isn't he?..why would he not win over a mile?..because he is a plodder..ie has not the speed to do so

jumps horses in the main are selling plate flat horses that like ambling around over twigs

the jumps is basically Great Leighs/Southwell AW standard horses running over obstacles
 
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