The Future Champions Festival

Sussex, Irish Champion then Arc. The three major European racing countries with a race each over the true triple crown distances.
 
It would be some excitement to see it done.

P.S. But including a mile race in such a Triple Crown would mean decline for the Derby?
 
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Yes probably although you could argue the time between that and the sussex is sufficient. 3yo seasons would probably start to look a little different though, assuming the series had a big enough prize fund.
 
I agree with much of what Warbler says here, but not all........

Longchamp may be in need of redevelopment, but that's precisely what they are going to do. I'll also take issue with the assertion about crowds. You say the attendance is flushed out from the UK and Ireland and the Far East. Surely that's the point though. Arc weekend is significant enough, and the racing is of such a high quality that even the odd twig hopping specialist wants to attend, and it's getting busier and busier every year!

The problem now is the the racecourse is too packed and getting as uncomfortable as Cheltenham on Gold Cup day, and the redevelopment is much needed. When complete Longchamp will more than compete with Ascot, and Arc day is singularly better than any single day card Ascot can hope for. On the other hand the Royal Meeting as whole probably shades Arc weekend as an event.

As for Ireland, Leopardstown is a nice course and would not be out of place as the third venue if there ever was an official triple crown. It doesn't have the same wow factor as Ascot, nor what Longchamp will become, but it will presumably go through it's own redevelopment at some point in the future. I certainly agree with the more general point about investment in Irish Racecourses though, and it's probably the only area that Ireland is behind the UK. In most other areas it's ahead.

For me the 'Daddy' of international racecourses is Meydan. And for a twig-hopper like me I'm more than happy there and appreciate the quality of racing week in week out through World Cup season. To the extent I'll be there next Thursday.

Cue p*ss take from Grassy, Warbler, et al.............. :D
 
Last time I knew, Longchamp were exploring some kind of temporary stand solution. The course they most remind me of in terms of function is Epsom. Busy for two days of the year but otherwise empty and with a horrible capital maintainance overhead. The current course has echoes of Sandown to my mind in that it relies heavily on concrete and soft plantings to disguise it. OK, a good architect can put that right, and that's the direction they're going in, even though it's unlikely that it'll ever have the 'class' of Chantilly, it could do 'chic'. I don't think the location is great, but then racecourses take up a lot of space and slotting them into major capital cities gets expensive. There's always going to be compromise here between prime position and cost, but it's essentially in an outlying business district

As I said though, the Curragh takes inaccessibility to a new level. The last people to do any development work there were the Luftwaffe! It's not remotely in the same league. Who knows, there might be a niche market develop yet for 'old fashioned' racing, or 'racing in a time warp'. All these mega million stadium courses can become a bit corporate and sterile with their banks of hospitality boxes. They certainly lack soul and connection with the sport in some regards. If you wanted an authentic 1970's experience then Ireland still has that.

Leopardstown has the greater potential and the dart does at least pass as transport infrastructure, but lets not get too carried away with it. Leopardstown is only really in the same sort of band as somewhere like Haydock, Doncaster, Sandown, and would be behind York, Espom, Goodwood, Ascot, Cheltenham etc

Another problem is the Dublin hotel scene too given that supply is poor and the market has a horrible reputation for price spiking. I haven't got the data any longer, but you should see the fall off in golf tourists in the wake of the 2006 Ryder Cup at the K Club. Only now are they starting to regain their 2005 market share. Basically a lot of people came, got ripped off, had a very poor experience, and vowed they wouldn't return. The comparison data with Celtic Manor which steadily grew it's share afterwards is very, very, stark when you see it on a graph

If I were looking at Irish racing going into the future, there would be more than just a bit of me saying we've got this the wrong way round and that the Curragh is an anathema going forward. The investment needs to be put into Leopardstown
 
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Maruco said:
Arc day is singularly better than any single day card Ascot can hope for. On the other hand the Royal Meeting as whole probably shades Arc weekend as an event.
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I'm not so sure that's as true as you might think, and I'm sure that's what the BHA were taking aim when they moved Future Champions Day onto the Champions Day window. Splitting courses however, was never likely to work (worth trying, but unlikely to capture the imagination). Newmarket isn't geared up to host a big international meeting. It lacks infrastructure and charisma

The French certainly have the edge in the 12F department because of the Arc, but going forward, is 10F's not going to be come the new 'blue riband' distance? It's the trip that the American breeding industry are increasingly interested in, and you only need to look on a graph at field sizes between the Derby and Prix Jockey Club to realise something is happening. About a decade ago Derby fields were much bigger than they were at Chantilly. Not any more. If you take out Aiden O'Brien (who has single hadnedly been keeping the Derby going) the threat to the 12F trip becomes even more apparent. Perhaps they ought to rename the Champion Stakes, the European Champion Stakes

Most races have to start off on a lower grade of course, but there's no reason to think that the Champion Sprint Stakes won't become a Gp1 race imminently. The Prix L'Abbaye is Gp1 in name only, and I reckon the Ascot race is stronger and has greater potential 6F's, which more of the international sprint distance.

The fillies and mares race (nice American title) has already been upgraded to Gp1, and at 12F's is a bit of an alternative to the Prix L'Opera and also allows fillies who ran in the Arc a chance to notch another Gp1 quickly if they're up to it. I'm not so sure that it isn't stronger than the L'Opera already

The Long Distance race and the Prix Cadaran are just supporting acts anyway

Ascot has the edge in the only other slot left. The Prix Foret at 7F is unique, but in terms of being an end of season Championship decider it falls short. The mile division by contrast is represented by the Queen Elizabeth

The primary races left therefore are the 2yo races, and again I think the BHA are sensing that they hold the edge here if they were able to prise them away from Newmarket. The Dewhurst, Middle Park, and Rockfel are a stronger trinity than the Bousacc and Lagadere. This is where the French hold the edge, that and the fact they have a second day with four Gp2 races. If Ascot were able to take over the Newmarket Future Champions day card(s), they would have the better racing package, with the stronger brand name, and be in position to place themselves on the apex of the European scene. The only thing the French could fight back with is prize money and a single race
 
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The Arc shows no signs of being in decline, it's far and away the best flat race in Europe and I don't see any advantage in trying to outdo it.

Why would you anyway? BHA/Ascot/Newmarket can improve their programme while complementing what the French and Irish are trying to do. They also have a big incentive to get a triple crown format into place for the different divisions because they will stage the final leg.
 
If the Arc starts to lose any influence it won't be because of the race or the spectacle, but rather the demands of the breeding industry and particularly North America where 10F's is increasingly the trip they value most. That is just gazing into the horizin though and speculating. The trend is there however, it's just a question of projecting that forward and trying to see where it'll stop, or will it?. Like I said, you can see it the 3yo division looking at the respective field sizes for the Derby, and those of the Prix Jockey Club before and after they dropped the trip to 10.5F's. The biggest casualty of this however is more likely to be the St Leger, and any triple crown is likely to restrict furture entries to stayers only rather than Derby horses. Who knows, perhaps one day the Epsom Derby will be run at 10F's and the Leger 12F's. Certainly a race like the Prix de Paris which was going nowhere, got a lift when the Prix Jockey Club abandoned the 12F trip

The arms race about the end of season finale is really about being the first amongst equals, or to be more precise, assuming primacy over Longchamp. The BHA quite deliberately scheduled Champions Day when they did precisely so any climatic focus would be on them. The problem they face however is prising the races away from Newmarket who simply aren't going to surrender them to Ascot. If they did, then Ascot would have the superior product. The Irish could assemble a similar card based on early to mid September by pooling that window of races they have and basing it at Leopardstown

Ultimately you have to start out, and work in, and that means location first. Paris and London are Europe's two most visited cities and have genuine global status. Dublin doesn't, but then Dublin is the best the Irish can put up, so put it up they must. Clearly a field miles from Kildare railway station is a non starter, so the investment has to go into Leopardstown, it could work as the opening salvo, but this is a tale of two cities really

What I see happening is the outward public presentation of co-operation and joint working, with both the BHA and to a lesser extent France Galop privately trying to secure primacy. HRI can't really enter this sphere of politics however, so will be left with hosting the first leg (which might be more prestigious than the middle one anyway)
 
You're right, the American focus is on 10f rather than 12f. But don't forget France were in a similar place and they're breeding operations are noww back very much in line with Godolphin and Coolmore. Those two are as powerful as any US breeding operation, and have more influence around Europe, The Middle East, Asia, and Australia. Essentially there is no need for the rest of the breeding world to toe the US line because there's ample opportunity for them to sell into it anyway.

Godolphin and Coolmore have more influence over race distances than the British, Irish, and French authorities who will always provide a programme that follows the breeders.

As for the French having the prizemoney card to play. I would have thought the influence that has over the negatives you state was obvious!
 
The one division that hangs together very well at the moment as things stand, is the fillies

Matron - 8F - (mid Sept, Leopardstown)
L'Opera - 10F (1st week Oct, Longchamp)
F & M - 12F (mid Oct, Ascot)

Admittedly the Vermielles will potentially suffer, but if they were serious about doing this kind of thing, they need to create 2 day weekend event held at the same track with a Gp1 dominated Sunday, and other group races shovelled onto the Saturday. Longchamp already have such a structure, but it means somehow persuading unsuitable venues like Newmarket and Curragh to give up races for the bigger venues with the greater potential such as Leopardtown and Ascot.

I think also that perhaps the programme would benefit for having a mile race run on the Arc card, which might be a case of switching the Prix Foret and Prix Moulin from the trials day
 
I think we'll see the end of season in the three countries evolve along the rough outlines we've been discussing here but it will take a bit of time.

I'm fond of the Curragh, and it shouldn't be forgotten that last year it attracted a significantly bigger crowd for its Ir St Leger card than Australia and The Grey Gatsby brought to Leopardstown the day before. But there's a long way to go if either track is to cope well with crowds of an Arc/Ascot/Galway scale.
 
Arc Trials days will potentially be a loser, but if horses route onto the Irish Champion Stakes instead of the trials. Having said that, you could merge the Foy and Niel in the knowledge that it'll be a Gp1 race within a few years, keep the Vermeilles, and switch the Foret for the Moulin, so you'd proabbly have three Gp1's on that card

The Leopardstown Sunday card would then feature:

The Irish Leger (1) Moyglare (1) National Stakes (1) Matron (1) Champion Stakes (1) as staples. Ideally you'd want a mile race which means getting the Clipper upgraded from Gp2, and a sprint which is a bit of an ask as the Flying Five is a Gp3. I think you could put six Gp1 races on here within a few years, and the sprint could probably achieve Gp2 status reasonably quickly

Saturdays card obviously looks a bit limper, but the Blandford (2) 2yo mile race (3) and the 10F sponsored race - KPMG (3) One would also suspect that the card would be ideal for a big handicap at a mile.

The card that would require the least attention would be the Arc card as it's the most mature already. All I'd do there as I said is switch the Moulin and Foret so that there is a Mile race on the card to complement the Clipper, but culminating in the Queen Elizabeth a couple of weeks later

The problem will come in England when Newmarket is going to want compensating for the loss of its races, and I suspect a similar thing will happen in Ireland as i don't suppose the Curragh will relinquish their three Gp1's to Leopardstown.

As I said though, it needs doing and it needs marketing as a racing weekends of Europe. Dublin is already second division when compared with London and Paris as a destination. It has nothing like the infrastructure, attractions, and facilities of either of Europe's principal K1 visitor venues. It can't possibly try and keep company with these partners by offering up a field outside of Kildare, in the same way as Nemarket would be wholly inadequate. The Curragh's simply not a sustainable option.

If The American's keeping awarding the BC to Santa Anita of course it starts to open up the east coast market which is only 2 hours further than California

The final leg is Ascot and that really means that Champions Day needs to get hold of the premier 2yo races for both colts and fillies to complete the set. The Dewhurst and Rockfel will need to be transfered with compensation paid

It might also mean that the sprint has to become a 5F affair to complete a series
 
I enjoy my visits to London and Paris, but they are not the places I'd pick as my favourite venues for a sporting event. They're so big, and so full of people who don't know what's going on around them, that once the crowd leaves the stadium or racecourse they melt into the background. In a place like Edinburgh or Dublin, on the other hand, a sporting event can take over the city for a few days. The Cheltenham festival could never be transferred to London or Paris without losing a big part of the fun side.
 
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Depends on the gravity of the event. You'd have been hard pressed to find many Londoners who didn't know they were hosting the Olympics, and similarly you could catch a tube during the Royal meeting dressed in all that silly gear they wear and no one would necessarily think you were completely odd (well they might) but what I mean is people would know that you were going to Ascot.

I'm guessing that what you're actually describing here is rugby internationals? and limiting the comment to these. Twickenham is particularly soulless by virtue of being in a middle class suburban enclave. It's not far off being about the worst venue I've ever been too when viewing lines, atmosphere, and location are combined. Give me Cardiff anyday. Although I've never been to Wimbledon, it would come as no surprise to me to hear the same.

I think Dublin's issues are different to be honest. It isn't a major capital and you never get any sense of dynamism or place about it. It doesn't really have much by way of genuine visitor attractions, but it can support a weekend break. Let's be honest, any city that counts its post office on its 'A list' is struggling. I can accept that it has a charisma (often wiped out by a dire accommodation offer and congestion in my experience) but what this really means is somewhere to get drunk, and that's what most people I know associate with the city. Western Europe's answer to Riga basically, but without the class and charisma of Amsterdam.

Having said that, it does provide a contrast to London and Paris, and I wouldn't be shocked to discover that anyone who attended all three of these end of season weekend meets might decide to rate Dublin as their favourite as it's certainly more intimate (provided of course they aren't required to drag all the way out and back to the Curragh and waste valuable drinking time). I think it might be a mistake though to look much beyond getting drunk in terms of what the city has to offer, but equally I wouldn't under estimate the value a lot of race goers attach to that either

Now if we're going to go left field completely here, would it be totally inappropriate on the Saturday card to slip some jump racing in? Leopardstown in mid September would perhaps be a push but not impossible. Ascot in mid October might. The Irish have much more of a tradition of course of mixed cards, but I can certainly see if part of the mission statement is to attract overseas visitors and promote horseracing, then a single feature jumps race might not be totally off limits provided it wasn't run on the principal day

The other strategic hook up they might pursue is a transatlantic one involving New York or Louisville and a quasi permanent home for the Breeders Cup, but racing in the States is in retreat for a host of reasons (they make the BHA look far sighted) and it would be a far from easy sell anyway. I would have thought that Ireland for all sorts of other reasons is the logical third partner to integrate. The stumbling block is likely to be the Curragh and Newmarket refusing to relinquish races. I think a compromise in Ireland would be possible though by rotating the venue every year, but it's going to require investment in both courses to bring them up to international 21st century showcase standards. At the moment they've barely been able to move anything forward on the Curragh and every time I see the latest plans they represent a retreat in ambition from the previous one
 
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Bit harsh in my home town warbler! Most beautiful stretch of the Thames and more than enough bars . Richmond next door. Not sure many people are negative about either place in my experience . Could be a lot lot worse. Wembley for instance . I would venture that more stay within a mile or so of ground than any venue I can think of (bar chelsea again maybe and lords perhaps)

In fact of the football grounds I've been to only chelsea has as much going on around it. Villa park and old Trafford are dire locations.

as for Cardiff, saw a cup final there and didnt like the place at all. Couldn't put finger on why
 
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Massive hangover more like. Couldn't touch a drop on the day. So maybe unfair.

One mate of mine was on tennents extra on day of match. Can't remember a single kick tomthis day and was taken back to hotel where he pissed the bed.

Its central though. Few grounds are. Chelsea sortof, Newcastle though I've not been there and Real Madrid which is in a very smart area. Nottingham too.

Around arsenal and spurs especially it's a toilet. West ham too and millwall is in a unnerving maze . QPR is ok though. I like the bush. Brentford pub on each corner of course.

have a guess which profeesional sports ground is probably the closest of any to a city centre?
 
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Nearly.. Chelmsford good call ... One venue is slightly closer though.
 
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New Road occurred to me, but I'd have said Chelmsford was nearer. Ultimately it'll likely come down to an interpretation of where any given city centre is, and where the sporting venue starts. You might even argue over what a professional sports ground is of course? The Old Course at St Andrews starts from a pretty central position, but then it's never clear to me whether St Andrews is a city or a town
 
Probably close as the crow flies but the walking distance to New Road is given as 0.4 miles on Google Maps and as 0.5 miles to New Writtle Street.
 
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