The Great Global Warming Swindle

krizon

At the Start
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Watched this with considerable interest, since as we debated GW previously, perhaps only three of us who took part (I was a third of those) believed that it was a farce and that we were being fed a load of, politely expressed, misinformation.

This was a programme fronted by some 13-14 highly-regarded and well-placed professors and doctors in the panoply of professions which involved the climate, from biogeography to weather forecasting (very long range and its effects on the entire globe), solar physicists, etc.

At its base core, the programme makers expressed their collective dismay at the way GW is being used as a political tool in one instance, as a neo-Marxist, anti-capitalist, anti-development tool in another, and definitely as an enormously bloated, fast-growing area of phoney science, gobbling up now billions of dollars of governments' money to try to prove that the Earth is actually suffering from manmade global warming, and that CO2 is to blame.

The facts as laid out begin with a few very simple facts: CO2 is a natural gas. It is essential to, and found in, all living things. It is NOT a pollutant. It forms a tiny percentage (.054%) of the tiny percentage of gases which are called greenhouse gases. Greenhouse gases are a natural and normal function of the troposphere, where they trap the Sun's warmth, not - as some might think - harmful and/or manmade horrors.

Global warming has taken place over millennia. Global cooling has done likewise. The programme reminded us of the hysteria over perceived global cooling, with clips from earnest yet doom-laden BBC films from the early 1970s, after the Earth had been through some thirty years of lowered temperatures. It also reminded us that this period - from 1940 - coincided with the biggest surge in industrialised outputs of CO2 as Japan joined in with Europe, America, and Russia in going full out with car and machine production, and that the 1950s in particular saw a huge uptake in kitchen appliances such as fridges, freezers, etc., and the airways saw a boom in air travel, while on the ground, roads were being built at the rate of knots to accommodate the big surge in family car travel. And yet... this all coincided with a period of global COOLING.

I won't go into all of the techie detail provided, other than that respected international universities and other research facilities have noted that all of the Sun's higher energy outputs - cosmic rays or 'sun spot' activities - have coincided with periods of warming on Earth.

VOLCANIC ACTIVITY (I thank you - I did mention this but was howled down by Brian at the time, who'd seen Al Gore's film) is the highest, natural, emitter of CO2. Next in line comes animal activity, rotting vegetation (autumnal changes), and the oceans. However, no matter how much CO2 they all emit, none of it is a pollutant, and from the results provided by weather balloon monitoring, there is no rise in the level of CO2 found in the greenhouse gases.

More facts: don't worry about polar bears! Prior to the Medieval Warm Period (where Chaucer describes vineyards in the north of England), there was the Holocene Maximum which lasted some 3,000 years when temperatures were much higher than now, and the bears survived these hot millennia just fine.

Ice caps: there is a normal Spring ice break-up and while we now have satellites to show us the natural and normal melting and breaking-up of polar ice caps, they also show us the freezing-up periods, too. These, though, aren't by any means hysterical enough for the media - we are told the ice caps are melting and we're probably doomed if we live near the coast. However, they do this in every warming period of the Earth, without massively flooding the world, and then they eventually slowly get back to a period of cooling and building up again. All completely natural and normal.

To encapsulate the science, rather than the hyberbole, behind global warming:

It's a natural and normal cycle of the Earth, as is global cooling.
The Earth's climate is controlled by clouds.
Clouds are controlled by cosmic rays.
Cosmic rays are controlled by the Sun.
Ergo, Sun activity (higher or lower) impacts the temperatures on the surface of the Earth. When it gets hotter and drier on Earth, it's Sun activity.

What was thrown up by the programme, and against which several of the scientists - now including Africans - was the pernicious notion that industrialised development is bad and should be regressed. Africa is rich in coal and oil, yet because it lacks inward development throughout the continent, the horrific statistics are that some 2 BILLION - ONE THIRD - of the world's people have no electricity, and FOUR MILLION children and women die early from respiratory and carcinogenic diseases related directly to indoor smoke inhalation (caused because they cook on wood fires). INDOOR SMOKE is the worst polluter. I did make a point in our discussion about millions of wood fires burning throughout Africa, India, and many other poor places in the world, but again this didn't fit with the anti-capitalist view of industrialised nations. I'm glad to see I may have missed a Uni education but not just commonsense on this subject.

So, millions of people don't enjoy clean electrical power for lighting, cooking, keeping food safe, heating in cold weather, fans or a.c. in very hot weather, and are being lectured to by the so-called 'environmentalists' that they should try solar power or wind energy instead. No, don't dig up your coal, don't develop your oilfields, they shriek, banging their little drums and waving their placards in Trafalgar Square. No, poor people, go ahead and die in your millions because of dirt and disease and squalor, while we play plaintive songs on our iPods for you. Well, the programme didn't put it quite like that - but I have.

One scientist said the romanticisation of peasant life was killing the African dream of development and entering the competitive, if not just the cleaner, healthier, world. The co-founder of Greenpeace stated this was in fact an anti-human stance - that it was saying it was okay for them to go blind, be sick, die young, rather than become fully industrialised in case they caused further (fictitious) global warming. To me, it's an interesting slant on the argument and I feel strongly it sounds a curious mix of anti-capitalist rant and a form of do-goodery which is more like neo-imperialism.

As one African said, the rich countries can afford to experiment with wind and solar power. How can Africans become industrialised - and run hospitals and operating theatres - on a solar panel? He demonstrated a local clinic where solar panels had been fitted. It could run a tiny fridge, to keep vaccines cool, OR the electric light! Pretty much on a par with the farcical home wind turbines being fitted here. Electricity in Africa would be far cheaper than expensive wind/solar energy, but so-called 'Greens' are worried sick that millions more homes running tvs, fridges, freezers, lights, will blight the world even more. And that's the really disgusting lie - it is not being blighted at all. CO2 is not damaging it, and it's not a polluting, malign influence. The lies and dissemblance are.

Of course we should all seek to see all of the world's vehicles not pouring out leaded petrol, of course we should all try to recycle as much of everything that we can, not litter, not befoul the seas, not do a lot of things which are wasteful and trashy and unnecessary. But one thing we can do right now is stop believing the pernicious lie about us causing global warming. Come the next Ice Age - maybe only a few decades away - you'll believe it.
 
When the director of this documentary, Martin Durkin, made the anti-environmentalist series "Against Nature" for Channel 4 in 1997, complaints about his selective and creative editing of those he interviewed led the ITC to force Channel 4 to make an on-screen apology.

You'll forgive me if I choose to ignore anything he has to say.
 
krizon, I am interested in the subject, as you know and I never have any objection to polemic, either for or against a view that I might hold. I was going to watch the programme until I found out that it was directed by Martin Durkin.

About ten years ago Martin Durkin produced a series of programmes for Channel 4 called "Against Nature". The theme of the programmes was that global warming was a scam dreamt up by environmentalists. It was full of false science containing what could be described as schoolboy howlers.

The only way that Durkin could make his case was to edit the answers of the people he interviewed, without their knowledge, to change their meanings. Unsurprisingly the interviwees complained after they had seen the broadcasts.

After these complaints the Independent Television Commission found that "the views of the complainants, as made clear to the interviewer, had been distorted by selective editing” and that they had been “misled as to the content and purpose of the programmes when they agreed to take part.”

Channel 4 was obliged to broadcast one of the most humiliating primetime apologies it has ever made.

I found it quite strange that Durkin was commissioned to make tonight's programme.
 
I found it quite strange that Durkin was commissioned to make tonight's programme.

It is Channel 4; they haven't exactly been a beacon of good judgement recently...
 
Are you going to tease us all night, HT, or are you going to tell us why?

Bear in mind that they did credit Al Gore with getting the two correct items right - surface temperature and greenhouse gases - but in the wrong order of action. Surface temperature (provided by the Sun's activity) slowly heats the world's oceans, and their actions slowly heat up the greenhouse gases - not the other way around. If you think about the power of the Sun, versus an Earth which is very far from uniformly populated by industrial CO2, don't you think something of that magnitude of energy is rather more likely to influence Earth's temperatures than Man's puny efforts?

I'm not sure that it matters which tv channel shows it - it could've been on Xtreme Sex Sports for all I care. The thing that matters to me is that there's been a very extensively researched programme of tests, a variety of monitoring all aspects of climate/climate change/the atmosphere/cloud formations/Sun activity, etc., to form a rigorous counterblast to the prevailing fashion. I'm just that little bit more inclined to believe the scientists involved in the relevant work every day, than a politician without a background in climatological studies.
 
Indeed, I didn't find it irresponsible in the slightest, never mind "exrtremely".

I was very struck by the strong correlation between increased sunspot activity and temperature, compared with that between CO2 and temperature.

I wish someone would explain to me how, as temperature rises precede those of CO2 levels, the latter are supposed to cause the former? It's like saying lung cancer causes smoking.
 
Originally posted by Venusian@Mar 9 2007, 11:13 PM
Indeed, I didn't find it irresponsible in the slightest, never mind "exrtremely".
A convert already. That's why it's extremely irresponsible. I don't know enough about it but, the general concensus among scientists is that we are to blame and you can always find someone with an opposing view who wants to make a name for themselves (I recall the same channel found some psychologist to say that Jeffrey Archer's washing of his hair every day, after the gym, was a classical psychopathic trait). Of course the mainstream thinking could be wrong but, are we going to gamble the existence of the human race on it. Wonderful stuff for the "it won't affect me so why should it cost me" division of course.
 
It doesn't do any harm for industry to clean up its real pollutants, of course, which cause all kinds of respiratory, skin, and other problems to masses of people worldwide. These aren't just airborne, but include toxic waste that seeps into the water tables, rivers, and seas. There's still a whole load of cleaning-up exercises we humans need to undertake - just retrieving lost miles of fishing lines and nets would save thousands of marine life from being caught and drowned every year. We're a very messy and uncaring species, in the main.

I would hope that people agreeing with the Sun spot activity theories would not be so foolish as to think that all of the other human activities which cause hardship and suffering to millions can be put on the back burner. Addressing AIDS, malaria, glaucoma, leprosy and the other debilitating diseases which are based in ignorance and often poverty, and sincerely assisting the undeveloped world towards standards of health, education, housing, hygiene and sustainable industries must be the developed world's priorities. However, reading an excerpt from a book about Zimbabwe today, where managers appoint THREE people for the same job, knowing that two will die off (from AIDS), I'm depressed as hell about the future of sub-Saharan Africa. With some villages now virtually bereft of ANY people in the middle age brackets, and only the very young and the very old surviving the disease's onslaught, it looks like being a begging-bowl for eons to come. Just appalling - and none of it helped by fatalistic tradition.
 
Honest Tom I'm not a "convert", and I don't claim to be an expert either, merely someone who'd like answers to the two questions I posed.

No one, not even the makers of the programme, is saying that human activity isn't contributing towards the increase in CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Likewise, the two points I made are similarly uncontested.

I'd just like some answers, please, preferably ones with a little more analytical rigour behind them than "...the general concensus among scientists is that we are to blame....". Remember the mini ice age we were supposed to be about to plunge into 30-odd years ago?
 
Originally posted by Honest Tom@Mar 10 2007, 12:14 AM
That's why it's extremely irresponsible. I don't know enough about it but, the general concensus among scientists is that we are to blame and you can always find someone with an opposing view who wants to make a name for themselves
Is it the general consensus though, or is it just that scientists who claim they can link things to global warming get more funding/media coverage etc and therefore people assume it is the general consensus?
 
Originally posted by tdk+Mar 10 2007, 10:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tdk @ Mar 10 2007, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Honest Tom@Mar 10 2007, 12:14 AM
That's why it's extremely irresponsible. I don't know enough about it but, the general concensus among scientists is that we are to blame and you can always find someone with an opposing view who wants to make a name for themselves
Is it the general consensus though, or is it just that scientists who claim they can link things to global warming get more funding/media coverage etc and therefore people assume it is the general consensus? [/b][/quote]
But why would they get more funding tdk? None of it is good for government unless you believe that they've put out a lot of money into it with a long term view of green taxing us all to the hilt whilst funneling the money towards other projects. Do governments think long term? Is it not usually the opposite because long term doesn't affect their political career?

Venusian, I'd like some answers myself but, we're not going to get them if we shrug the problem off as a result of a one sided documentary that gives voice to someone with questionable credentials. Personally I don't have a lot of time for experts. Your average 'expert' is a total knob end and I suspect whatever way they go on this they'll fk it up but, with the future of the human race at stake, I'd rather fund the diddies than assume it will be a total waste of money.

PS I'm not a green. As far as I'm concerned, nature is what kills us. Get it to fk imo.
 
I am in the "irresponsible documentary" camp too. There is a lot of money to made scaring people with this Global Warming stuff and documentaries like this put that in danger.
 
:D What I found scary, too, was how these scientists said that if you wanted to get funding quickly - and big time - for any research, all you had to do was to tag 'into global warming' in the proposal and it went through double-time! There were some incredible figures being bandied about, too. Research funds had gone from tens of millions into billions now, and everyone was supposed to come up with conclusions which supported the theory that human activity was the sole reason for global warming. As you say, Betsmate, thousands of new jobs would be threatened if it were accepted (it's already proven) that GW was just a natural and normal occurrence. One person (the ex-editor of the New Statesman) said his council now had a 'Global Warming Community Officer' ffs!
 
So, what are the panel`s views on the phasing out of standard light bulbs in favour of energy efficient ones?

When i switched energy suppliers (through a link on here naturally) my new providers sent me a couple of these bulbs. They take a bit of getting used to as they`re not as bright but i`m a convert.
 
IMO it depends on the lifespan of energy saving vs tesco value bulbs. If the energy saving bulbs last 6 times as long I dont mind paying 6 times as much, if they last the same length im going to keep on buying the cheapest option
 
I use energy-saving bulbs in some rooms but not in others.

If you're switching them on and off all the time you don't get the same saving so putting them in a bathroom or toilet is probably not worth it. If, on the other hand, you like some rooms to be lit for longer spells even when the room is unoccupied, eg for aesthetic reasons, then they can save you quite a bit. I also use them for exterior lights that are switched on at dusk and stay on until bedtime.

Also, remember to make sure you check that the energy-saving bulb gives off the same light as an ordinary bulb. There's usually a guide on the box.
 
I've used them for years - well before there were ranting exhortations to do so. They give a good light and one of them is around five years old, maybe more, and still going strong. You don't need to have boxes of spares when you put these in - they really will go on and on.

Not that they're anything to do with global warming, more about using energy more efficiently - but there are also some terrific-looking cars being trialled now by Chev, using a lithium-ion battery which can be charged at the mains supply; the Honda FCX (shown last year), a fuel-cell concept car; the Ford Airstream (which looks a squeezed caravan), again a fuel-cell SUV, and the Toyota FT-HS, my personal favourite on looks, using a hybrid drivetrain with a 3.5 litre V8 engine. The HS stands for 'hybrid synergy', it can reach 60 mph in 4 secs and carry four people. Still a concept, but possibly the next Supra to be.

Fortunately, getting energy-efficient cars isn't going to mean driving something that looks like a CV and tops 25 mph!
 
Is it the general consensus though, or is it just that scientists who claim they can link things to global warming get more funding/media coverage etc and therefore people assume it is the general consensus?

As opposed to the scientists claiming the opposite who get more funding from Exxon and friends?
 
Universities all notoriously compete for funds from big companies. Of course they do! That's been a fact for decades, nothing new there. Big drugs companies fund drugs research - it doesn't mean the research is bent towards them, although most medical research ends up coming up with new medicines and vaccines, so it's fairly inevitable that the funders will market any viable product. Art galleries get funded by oil companies, so do museums, schools, charities, all kinds of organisations which don't generate enough income themselves. That doesn't mean that the funders get to call all the shots, although they can pull funding if the organisation goes off in a direction they don't like.

What was said in the programme was that if you ATTACH the magic words 'global warming' to your research, you are much more likely to be granted funds by the universities (which are usually funded by oil companies, banks, all kinds of capitalist enterprises and rich benefactors) for which you're working. So it's become a kneejerk reaction to the two words - 'global warming' = good work = get funding. Therefore, jobs are more secure and frequently increase, research expands and the vacuum previously unfilled by GW become miraculously filled by lots of eager beavers trying to wind their research around some aspect of climate change, linked to global warming.

To be fair, the scientists didn't say that the words had to imply that GW was a force for evil, or connected de facto to human activity - just that by using the words, your project was far more likely to get off the ground.
 
GF, you surely jest.

The amount of money avaliable to scientists and researchers who are pro CO2 being a significant cause of global warming must exceed the anti brigade by a factor of many hundreds, if not thousands.
 
How could you possibly know how much the energy industry is willing to spend to maintain the status quo?
 
Are you seriously suggesting that the oil companies are secretly matching the billions spent annuially on the "CO2 industry" without anybody noticing?

Rather than sheltering behind conspiracy theories, it would be more helpful to answer the questions I raised concerning the time lag between temperature rises and the level of CO2 in the atmosphere, and the strong correlation between sunspot activity levels and average temperatures.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Mar 10 2007, 09:00 PM
good work = get funding
Are you kidding Kri. Claim you think you've found a cure for some disease where the drug companies are making a fortune selling pills to ease the symptoms and you'll be far more likely to get topped by them than be given money to fund your research.
 
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