Soary Stars - I couldnt DISAGREE with you more and I work for a major bookmaker in the trading division and I know exactly the figures involved.
Racing unlike other sport that bookies bet on rely its financing HEAVILY on gambling. Its like greyhound racing, gambling and horse racing go hand in hand. For sport like football, cricket etc, they can rely on attendance, merchandise, TV rights etc. But racing's core income comes from gambling, racecourses do get attendances money etc but they are all indepdant and are all out for themselves as well. WHat should happen is that all racecourses should be owned by BHA thereby we will not get these outrageous clashes and all racecourses bidding for meetings on Sat so they can increase their revenue. That is another matter
Anyway, to use an analogy quoted by a trainer last week, racing is like a farm at the moment and the bookies are like the farmer. They keep taking out as much as they can from the field and re-investing as little as possible back. I dont think there is another industry where the money ( Prize money) going into the 'system' is decreasing year in year out yet 'millions/thousands' are relying on the money filtering through it. From trainers/stable staff/jockey/vets/ferriers/racecourse staff/suppliers etc. Its espeically bad for the owners, why should they keep ploughing thousands and thousand into horses and have very little in return. If there are less and less owners than who will keep racing going?? I cant see the bookies spending thousands each month to keep horses with trainers so they have racing on TV for people to punt on. Obviously the return is not the number 1 aim of having horses but a 'chance' of recrouping something back when you have a good animal should be there. Do you work in an industry where you have to take a pay cut year in year out or have to keep the same wage??? If the Sheikhs pulled out of British racing, I would dread to think what would happen......
From a numbers point of view, have you seen the figures from the HKJC, how much they turnover, how much they plough back into their racing product and the facilities they have, prizemoney and the passion from their fans, Japan is another good example. The problem with the french racing is that most people dont have their equidia their racing channel and has become a bit of a minority sport due to its lack of coverage. Racing can thrive (co -exist) with a strong PMU system as well as bookies and the exchanges look at Australia which has done remarkably well. The problem is in UK is that the very last chance has disappeared with Tote going to Betfred who dont pay out on bets.
Grey - Dont agree with a few of your points as well. Racecourse attendance would not suffer from bookies or tote, 90% of those people going racing these days is there for a day out. Anyway, the last time you went to a racecourse, did any bookie really take it on, take anything on to give you a standout price????? Did you check that you not have got a better price offcourse????? Also from a punting prospective, a serious gambler these days have to go so so many ways to just keep an account alive, most of them gets culled at the drop of a hat. In fact, there are not many ways of getting on anymore, you can say exchanges but have you seen their new charge??? More importantly though, no one even half dare put anything up trying to a back a horse on the lay side anymore because bookies are all lemmings to betfair prices. ARBs are a NO NO. At places where the Tote is strong, you will have no restriction on your stake, in fact, they will encourage you to put/bet as much money into the 'pool' as possible. Ante post is a fair point but have you seen how much they bet to?? the over-rounds???? looka t EBor betting, im sure on the day, a lot of horses will be better price on the day.
Bookmakers - All they care about is their profit margin and how much they can squeeze out of it. Do they really care about racing??? Oh yes they sponsor many races! True but most get a jolly up from it, more advertising and dont be fooled, what they put into advertising is significantly less they gain from the product. Im surprised that football dont ask for money from what betting gain from it, bookies are making millions from the product every year yet they never plough anything. When there are 'fixed' matches, they cry foul pay, yet when the move for the team dont win, they are more than happy to keep quiet. Also, by offering more and more rubbish football, its a no brainer that some will be tempted to throw a match away. Yet, why do bookmakers offer so much random/rubbish football. Oh yes, its to allow them to increase their profit margin through acca business and also to let gamblers to keep chipping away. To throw back the money they just won or chase the money they have lost. What sort of ethics do they really have, they let the losers, potential big losers bigger stakes and allowing them to bet whereas anyone who is half shrewd gets knock back or have their accounts closed??!!
Also, how many handicaps do we need??? These big field handicaps are good if 2 races in a card not 5 or 6, a lot of my friends are put off by racing due to the big fields, not only do we need to study form, we have to know ground, draw bias and now over water ground. Whats even worst is that clerk of the courses are chucking water on very know biases which makes it even more of a lottery!!!!! Who really benefits from these handicaps???? Oh yes the bookmakers due to the bigger margin they can bet to. Look at racing abroad they do not have half as many handicaps as we do, its easier to 'pick' out winners which is one ingriedent that RFC have neglected. The best part of going racing is backing winners, thats arguably the best thing to sell. Who dosent wanna go on a day out and gain extra money if they are good enough to understand the form/lucky enough etc. Its very hard to do now given the cards we get................
Yes one can argue the prices on offer on Saturday mornings are very very competitive, yet how much can you get on them??? The offers the PR guys says on each morning are a disgrace since they dont allow much on at all if anything. Furthermore, the competitive nature of these prices isnt necessary good for racing, since a lot of the money from these companies are financed from say Bingo/casino side. There is one very big firm which do not hardly make any money from racing. Another problem the bookies has caused is the low grade racing we have now, without them, we wouldnt have as many 'rubbish' meetings to keep the show on the road. They want as much of the product as they can for the pt mentioned above, ie keep punters gambling, throw their winnings back or chase their losses. The 'so' called bent races occur due to the low prize money on offer, do we see any bent races at Cheltenham??? Ascot etc. If you offer races for 1k and potentially gambling on it wins more than that. I dont blame them. The morning price moves that people seen to be very keen on to know isnt as damaging for bookies as they say. How many of us out there have managed to get a 25ew on a 33-1/25s/20s shot in the morning and seen the price stay the same???? Bookies like to get a mark and if the so say account won on that 20-1, they will mark it up for further references if they punt horse from the same trainer etc. In fact, you will be lucky to have an account still if the horse wins!! The thousands, millions they say in the TV, taken out to the cleaners are im afraid a bit of a myth....Bookies hate to lay big prices whereas a 2-1 shot etc, they are happy to stay, obviously this dosent include the say the big handicaps where they will take a bit of a position. If one try the 20-1 bob in a maiden/claimer/seller low grade handicaps, their limits are very small. If one go into a shop now, you will see the bookies are trying to sell their other products which is more profitable to them such as machines/football. MULTIS, they love multis since it encourage wagon behaviour. All in all, they dont really care about the racing product, they want the product to be there so they can make money from it. The more they can change racing to suit them, all the better, it has gone too far already. They want to increase profit/margin year in year out to staisfy shareholders and hopefully the big guys at the company will get a massive payout. They like the big days where they can have their bit of PR and good racing does increase turnover but they are not helping themselves by putting less and less into the product, encouraging medrocity. If Newmarket wasnt here ( Breeding centre etc) isnt in England and the SHeikhs are not here, I dont see why english racing are better than other parts of the world.
What racing should have done when they did the deal years back was that the Levy should have been a % of racing betting turnover not Gross Pofit. The very fact racing profits/gain from its most loyal supporter is a little worrying. Why should racing need to make it profitable for bookies?? It should have been % of turnover and bookies has to find a way for it be profitable for them, if the prices needs to be shorter, so be it. Maybe they can do something like selling license/right for firms to bet on the sport and all other firm are outlawed/banned.
Its not a well written argument here cos my written english isnt great but I DO hope my general point has been achieved. especially in your reference to your last post Grey, the motive of a tote is different to bookmakers. Look at it in another way, HKJC is a NON profit organisation, every bookie in the world would give 99% of their body to have a piece of the action over there. Every penny they make goes back into the racing or other charities in that country. Thats why their standard of racing is getting better and better. English racing has a much steeper history/prestige though but the money on offer is very very poor. The big races are still worth winning on the flat because the breeding industry is still in pretty good shape ( Stud value after winning big race etc)compare to the actual prizemoney on offer.
