The Nicky Henderson Thread 2019 / 2020

Mixed feeling on this

Superstar horse. I came into this sport because of 2 mile horses. Owners and trainers almost seem apologetic over having a 2 mile horse.

Come Boxing day, it could be moutherwatering mind

And from an AP point of view suits me and Euro with Le Richerbourg and UCPS for me but I hate the idea of a 2 mile horse being viewed as any way inferior
 
granger said:
Mixed feeling on this

Superstar horse. I came into this sport because of 2 mile horses. Owners and trainers almost seem apologetic over having a 2 mile horse.

Come Boxing day, it could be moutherwatering mind

And from an AP point of view suits me and Euro with Le Richerbourg and UCPS for me but I hate the idea of a 2 mile horse being viewed as any way inferior
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Agree with you completely about the point of why 2 milers should be viewed inferior, and mixed feelings.
I feel they are being forced into going further, and if he was mine, I would tell them where to stick it.
I don't think he will stay 3 miles, never mind further.
 
Even as a novice hurdler they were talking of 2m being too short for Altior and that he was actually bred to be a three-miler.

He was just so good at 2m they kept him at that trip while there was next to nothing in the way of opposition. Now they're accepting he needs to go up in trip to maintain his superiority.

I don't have a problem with any of that and look forward to seeing Altior cement his superiority at a more suitable trip for him.
 
I can't see how it can be said he was bred to be a 3 miler? Dam's sire was 9 furlong specialist and nothing more than mile and a half on the sire's side and no reputed NH lines, and I discount SW as he was not stood as a NH stallion.
Think it is a real shame that he can't be accepted and admired for being a great horse for winning so many races in such a fabulous manner.

People don't do this with flat horses. 'Frankel, yeah he's great but run him over a mile and a half or even better, 2 miles, then he'd be a really great horse.'
 
They did do it with Frankel but not to the exaggerated extent you suggest.

A lot of people wanted to see Frankel run at a mile and a half, just as they did with Brigadier Gerard nearly 50 years ago. The latter ultimately proved himself by winning the King George but it has to be said his very best form was at a mile and ten furlongs.

I don't mind seeing them attempt a trip that would challenge them but I'm not sure I see the point of persisting if they're clearly better at shorter. Altior's ideal trip is probably short of the three miles but until he tries it they'll never know.
 
Interesting that Nicky uses the words ‘flat to the boards’ in his races over two miles.

Nicky and Nico know far more than I ever will, but I’ve been watching a horse that hits a flat spot that takes time to be stoked, and is classy enough to finish his races like a Ferrari.

The only horse that I’d be afraid of for Altior over two miles is the fragile Chacun Pour Soi. Over three miles the list is pretty long. Given there is a very good chance of him going down in Champion Chase folklore I’m genuinely surprised by this decision despite the vibes that have been there for twelve months.

I also have two issues with the plan. The first is that I’m not entirely sure making him settle behind a three mile pace will play to his strengths, and second two milers stepped up tend to lose their speed when dropped back.

Ultimately they’ll be called geniuses if he wins a King George and a Gold Cup, but it’s more likely we’ll be calling them out for denying him his piece of history.
 
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Purely on racecourse performance, he has every chance of staying the sharp 3m of the King George. The Gold Cup against proper GC horses is 'pie in the sky' imo, and he'd be double figures in my book to even last home.
 
Maruco said:
Interesting that Nicky uses the words ‘flat to the boards’ in his races over two miles.

Nicky and Nico know far more than I ever will, but I’ve been watching a horse that hits a flat spot that takes time to be stoked, and is classy enough to finish his races like a Ferrari.

The only horse that I’d be afraid of for Altior over two miles is the fragile Chacun Pour Soi. Over three miles the list is pretty long. Given there is a very good chance of him going down in Champion Chase folklore I’m genuinely surprised by this decision despite the vibes that have been there for twelve months.

I also have two issues with the plan. The first is that I’m not entirely sure making him settle behind a three mile pace will play to his strengths, and second two milers stepped up tend to lose their speed when dropped back.

Ultimately they’ll be called geniuses if he wins a King George and a Gold Cup, but it’s more likely we’ll be calling them out for denying him his piece of history.
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UCPS will prob want longer too but all the great 2 milers need to stay at least 2.5
 
The way some of the more recent King George’s have been run I reckon they’ve been a thorough test of stamina. More so than a couple of recent Gold Cups Reet.

In fact the more I think about it, settling may not be an issue at Christmas. Getting home could well be though. And between those two things therein lies the problem they have. How is the race run to suit?
 
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granger said:
UCPS will prob want longer too but all the great 2 milers need to stay at least 2.5
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You’d think he’ll be every bit as good over the intermediate trip PJ but he’s electric over two miles. I suspect the problem they’ll continue to have with him is keeping him fit. Being cherry ripe on the day is an art that Willie excels at, but how many times can he have him hard fit without breaking down. Unfortunately he’d be prime candidate for the dreaded news in the lead up to the Festival.
 
Maruco said:
You’d think he’ll be every bit as good over the intermediate trip PJ but he’s electric over two miles. I suspect the problem they’ll continue to have with him is keeping him fit. Being cherry ripe on the day is an art that Willie excels at, but how many times can he have him hard fit without breaking down. Unfortunately he’d be prime candidate for the dreaded news in the lead up to the Festival.
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I was told Puppy said he was the best novice he has ever ridden

Given even his last year's novice horses that is a mean achievement
 
Desert Orchid said:
They did do it with Frankel but not to the exaggerated extent you suggest.

A lot of people wanted to see Frankel run at a mile and a half, just as they did with Brigadier Gerard nearly 50 years ago. The latter ultimately proved himself by winning the King George but it has to be said his very best form was at a mile and ten furlongs.

I don't mind seeing them attempt a trip that would challenge them but I'm not sure I see the point of persisting if they're clearly better at shorter. Altior's ideal trip is probably short of the three miles but until he tries it they'll never know.
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Well I would disagree that 'people' didn't bang on about running Frankel over a mile and a half. He didn't go for the Derby but there was constant 'pressure' from areas to run him in the King George, especially in his 4 year old career, I remember that very clearly, but he didn't , nor the Arc. That doesn't make him any less of a champion in most peoples' minds.

I think Altior's 'career' will be ruined. Really hope that doesn't happen but most of all he stays safe.
 
Maruco said:
The way some of the more recent King George’s have been run I reckon they’ve been a thorough test of stamina. More so than a couple of recent Gold Cups Reet.

In fact the more I think about it, settling may not be an issue at Christmas. Getting home could well be though. And between those two things therein lies the problem they have. How is the race run to suit?
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This theory has been aired many times before on this forum, but - no matter how attritional it may seem - the fact remains that Kempton is a sharp, flat 3m circuit and; as so many have found out in the past, is a totally different test to 3 times up the Cheltenham hill; a test which would take Altior beyond the level of his capability,imo.

ps: It's doubtful that any 3m chaser around would have the class to get Altior off the bridle in a KG, anyway.
 
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G-G said:
People don't do this with flat horses. 'Frankel, yeah he's great but run him over a mile and a half or even better, 2 miles, then he'd be a really great horse.'
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Desert Orchid said:
They did do it with Frankel but not to the exaggerated extent you suggest.

A lot of people wanted to see Frankel run at a mile and a half, just as they did with Brigadier Gerard nearly 50 years ago. The latter ultimately proved himself by winning the King George but it has to be said his very best form was at a mile and ten furlongs.
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G-G said:
Well I would disagree that 'people' didn't bang on about running Frankel over a mile and a half. He didn't go for the Derby but there was constant 'pressure' from areas to run him in the King George, especially in his 4 year old career, I remember that very clearly, but he didn't , nor the Arc. That doesn't make him any less of a champion in most peoples' minds.
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I've had a pretty rough 24 hours, G=G, so maybe I'm not interpreting your comments correctly but right now I think you're contradicting yourself? It looks to me like you started by saying people didn't bang on about [the likes of] Frankel not having to prove himself over further and now you're saying they did?

I'm already feeling like chopping my own head off so put me right!
 
[h=1]"I expect I'll have an enormous list of novices and they could be anything," Henderson gushed. "It could easily be the strongest bunch of novice chasers I've had and JP has some beautiful horses for this division.[/h][FONT=&quot]"I will admit with Champ and Birchdale that I ran them in the wrong races at Cheltenham. When Champ won the Sefton over three miles at Aintree you saw he wanted the trip, while Birchdale blatantly didn't stay it in the Albert Bartlett.

"Eight years ago, I switched Bobs Worth from two and a half miles to three at Cheltenham after suddenly waking up in the middle of the night and realising it was the right thing to do. I did think about that before Cheltenham, but the die was fairly cast. I think Champ would have won the Albert Bartlett, but I can't say Birchdale would have won the Ballymore, although it would have been a better way round."
Rattling through a team that must make the Lambourn icon the envy of his counterparts, he continued: "They'll both go novice chasing along with Dickie Diver, who could be very good. That also applies to Precious Cargo and Rathhill, while Pym should be useful.




[/FONT]
 
Desert Orchid said:







I've had a pretty rough 24 hours, G=G, so maybe I'm not interpreting your comments correctly but right now I think you're contradicting yourself? It looks to me like you started by saying people didn't bang on about [the likes of] Frankel not having to prove himself over further and now you're saying they did?

I'm already feeling like chopping my own head off so put me right!
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'People' banged on about Frankel running over a mile and a half, to 'prove' he was a great horse.

Hopefully your head is better now. :)
 
reet hard said:
This theory has been aired many times before on this forum, but - no matter how attritional it may seem - the fact remains that Kempton is a sharp, flat 3m circuit and; as so many have found out in the past, is a totally different test to 3 times up the Cheltenham hill; a test which would take Altior beyond the level of his capability,imo.

ps: It's doubtful that any 3m chaser around would have the class to get Altior off the bridle in a KG, anyway.
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I would agree that 3 miles around Kempton is completely different to 3 miles round Cheltenham, and some very decent horses in the recent past weren't anywhere near as good round Kempton as they were round Cheltenham. Even if Altior goes for the KG and wins, not a given that he would get the GC trip. If he's going to stay 3 miles, Kempton is the easiest one to prove that one.
 
granger said:
[h=1]"I expect I'll have an enormous list of novices and they could be anything," Henderson gushed. "It could easily be the strongest bunch of novice chasers I've had and JP has some beautiful horses for this division.[/h][FONT=&quot]"I will admit with Champ and Birchdale that I ran them in the wrong races at Cheltenham. When Champ won the Sefton over three miles at Aintree you saw he wanted the trip, while Birchdale blatantly didn't stay it in the Albert Bartlett.

"Eight years ago, I switched Bobs Worth from two and a half miles to three at Cheltenham after suddenly waking up in the middle of the night and realising it was the right thing to do. I did think about that before Cheltenham, but the die was fairly cast. I think Champ would have won the Albert Bartlett, but I can't say Birchdale would have won the Ballymore, although it would have been a better way round."
Rattling through a team that must make the Lambourn icon the envy of his counterparts, he continued: "They'll both go novice chasing along with Dickie Diver, who could be very good. That also applies to Precious Cargo and Rathhill, while Pym should be useful.




[/FONT]
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I think this could be another stellar year for novice chasers, particularly at 2m4+ so he's not alone there.
 
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