The Road To The 2012 Champion Hurdle

SteveM said:
I would hold out for 5/2 against. Whether you'll get that would be doubtful, but he'll surely be odds against rather than odds on (they'll be many bookmakers who won't have taken a penny on him yet)... I doubt he'll go big enough for me to have an interest though.
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5/2??? Cmon. If he touched that at any point the bookies would get battered. If he goes anywhere near 2s they will get battered.
 
swedish chef said:
Also I'd be interested in the stats of horses placed in the Neptune and running the following year in the Champion Hurdle as they say you need a horse who stays 2 1/2m to win it - don't they?
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Istabraq the first horse to win both. Then along came Hardy Eustace. The new track 2miles considered tougher than the old track which may contribute to County hurdle and Triumph hurdle performers graduating. Rooster Booster , Katchit etc. Tote Gold Trophy form esp in the Schweppes days were often informative for improving horses. The last horse to bring off the Triumph/ schweppes/ champion hurdle treble was Persian War, carrying 11.13 to victory at Newbury. Can Zarkander do likewise? If the horse is fast enough it matters little where he ran last. after all Flyingbolt won a Thystes chase and The Two Mile chase the day before and damn near won it; I suppose the Thystes win showed his stamina! Oh and won the Irish National with 12.7 his next start. Horse must stay 2 miles fully is all I can say
 
i think the main point is, is that hurricane fly is probably the best 2m hurdler ever to draw breath

he lamposted binocular at punchestown last year and will again

a straight forecast hurricane fly/zarkandar is the bet imo
 
Not sure of the truth in it but rumours abound today that Spirit Son could be supplemented back into the Champion Hurdle. Backed as low as 17 on Betfair, can't be right surely:confused:

Confirmed now that he hasn't been supplemented. Quite a few people were backing him this morning, who in their right mind falls for these things?
 
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detroit orchid said:
i think the main point is, is that hurricane fly is probably the best 2m hurdler ever to draw breath

he lamposted binocular at punchestown last year and will again

a straight forecast hurricane fly/zarkandar is the bet imo
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If anyone thinks Binocular was anywhere near his best last year making the running at Punchestown they need help .

And adding to Tanlic's list what about Sir Ken, Persian War,Bula ,Comedy of Errors , Night Nurse, Sea Pigeon and Golden Cygnet
 
There has been so many good two miler hurdlers it makes you question the strength of the division and the hurdler itself.

Are they any more than Ebor type horse with obsticals put in front of them.

There is no solid means of justifying a Hurdlers performance so we have to rely on perception and subconcious guided faith by trainers and owners comments.
 
Ardross said:
It was very soft at Wincanton which would not suit Binocular nor does a slow pace. I cannot have it that he was as good at Kempton- he did not jump anywhere near as well and was all out - the reason being he could not breathe.
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I still see it as a 3 horse race with HF the deserved fav and Binocular / Rock On Ruby the only realistic challengers - Zarkandar should improve from his last run but can he find 10-12lbs to be involved? Rock On Ruby has the progressive profile I like and sired by Oscar is another positive in my book and looks the only value in the race imo. Cheltenham can't come soon enough, I'm having sleepless nights already :lol: Good luck Ardross.
 
swedish chef said:
I still see it as a 3 horse race with HF the deserved fav and Binocular / Rock On Ruby the only realistic challengers - Zarkandar should improve from his last run but can he find 10-12lbs to be involved? Rock On Ruby has the progressive profile I like and sired by Oscar is another positive in my book and looks the only value in the race imo. Cheltenham can't come soon enough, I'm having sleepless nights already :lol: Good luck Ardross.
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Cheers ! I am not saying I don't like Rock on Ruby a good deal and I would be not be at all surprised to see him place
 
Bruce_Savage said:
There has been so many good two miler hurdlers it makes you question the strength of the division and the hurdler itself.

Are they any more than Ebor type horse with obsticals put in front of them.

There is no solid means of justifying a Hurdlers performance so we have to rely on perception and subconcious guided faith by trainers and owners comments.
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in his flat racing days hurricane fly beat literato by 2l

literato later won the group 1 champion stakes at newmarket

hurricane fly has had a history of injuries

so the point is, if he'd have been trained by o,brien, stoute, cecil, or gosden etc without the injuries how good could he have been on the flat?

he could just be the best horse ever to jump hurdles and after 25 years of watching jumps racing he is easily the best hurdler i've ever seen, and without the injuries would have won 3 champion hurdles already

NDAFBI
 
No doubt that Hurricane Fly was a decent flat horse but that only supports my argument about not having to be special in order to be a top class jumps horse.

How many 0-85 Handicappers on the Flat have come and destroyed some of the more beautiful and natural jumpers that a season can hold? Clerk's Choice and Hollow Tree spring to mind, if you consider an 85 rated flat horse who found it hard to improve past that mark was capable of running within 11l of the greatest hurdler in all time who was at least rated around 112 on the flat then you have to put into question the legitmiacy of some of the claims going around.

When you consider Hurricane Fly beat the same horse Solwhit 4 times in Group 1 company by a few lengths that's hardly anything special given he just about beat Peddler's Cross at Cheltenham by a length.

You can't give horses great reputations unless they've achieved great things and running them in jog-sprint 5 runner affairs over in Ireland is hardly the hallmark of greatness.

To be fair there isn't much over in Ireland in the Jumping department which is why there are so many drab Graded affairs dominated by one man and his jockey but Hurricane Fly is not all he's cracked up to be.

There is no doubt this horse will be beaten at Cheltenham this year if he comes up against an inferrior rival which could be Zarkandar who is well related to the greatest turf filly of all time in Zarkava - talk about an illustrious pedigree.

Every few years we have a "great" hurdler, too many in my book.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveM
I would hold out for 5/2 against. Whether you'll get that would be doubtful, but he'll surely be odds against rather than odds on (they'll be many bookmakers who won't have taken a penny on him yet)... I doubt he'll go big enough for me to have an interest though.


OTB said:
5/2??? Cmon. If he touched that at any point the bookies would get battered. If he goes anywhere near 2s they will get battered.
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Which is why I said I doubted that would be available, adding "but he'll surely be odds against rather than odds on".
 
detroit orchid said:
:rolleyes:

istabraq was a good hurdler but not a great one

the era between 98/03 was a poor one- very poor

hurricane fly would certainly not get beaten by an old cart such as pridwell would he?
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Too harsh on Istabraq (and I wasn’t his biggest fan), he was a great sort... I was on Shadow Leader that day, but Istabraq was giving that one a pounding when SL came to grief. After all Istabraq did have a best RPR of 181. HF is on a best of 173. Istabraq achieved superior ratings to this on a hatful of occasions, which even accounting for slippage makes him superior. Three-times Champion Hurdle winner: 29 Hurdle starts 23 wins 3 times runner-up, great record. HF also has a very good record thus far but has only achieved half of what Istabraq did, as yet.
 
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detroit orchid said:
:rolleyes:

istabraq was a good hurdler but not a great one

the era between 98/03 was a poor one- very poor

hurricane fly would certainly not get beaten by an old cart such as pridwell would he?
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Give me strength ! No doubt you will be telling us weight doesn't matter next !
 
To say Istabraq was under par at Aintree would be the biggest understatement of all time. The race was 48 seconds slow, he had been trained to the minute for the Champion and won it by 12 lengths and had Pridwell 15 lengths behind. The general view and obviously the corect one is he was over the top.

That was blatantly obvious at the time and any punter who took it seriously has no busniess in the game.

Istabraq is regarded by every good judge on the planet as one of the best Champion Hurdlers of all time, some would argue the best ever.

I would love to here what Hurricane Fly's trainer Willie Mullins would say to anyone who said to him Istabraq wasn't a great Champion Hurdler. At a guess the second word would be "Off"

Horse had speed to burn and even the Fly couldn't have gone with him in 1998.......no horse has ever won a Champion Hurdle with so much authority and still had tons in the tank.
 
Tanlic said:
Istabraq is regarded by every good judge on the planet as one of the best Champion Hurdlers of all time, some would argue the best ever.
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One of the best, maybe, but no shortage of worthy candidates with claims to have been better.

He is as much the 'best ever' hurdler as Best Mate is the 'best ever' chaser.
 
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