Cybrandian
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Not having a go, in fact good on her for getting the news out.
The Road to the Grand National 2011
- Thread starter Bar the Bull
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Not having a go, in fact good on her for getting the news out.
Shadow Leader
At the Start
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I'm not after a ruck either, Songsheet - just pointing out that horses are lost all the time in other circumstances, even flat racing, as you know. Krizon has highlighted in another thread that two horses were lost on the flat today, as well.
I can see what you are saying about the Grand National but it is an institution in itself, a great tradition and something which brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people. The atmosphere at Aintree prior to, during, and immediately after the National is unlike that which you get anywhere, even dare I say it, at Cheltenham. Horses aren't lost in the race every year, and safety is paramount, changes are made to the track every year. The fences themselves are far smaller than they were even ten years ago and everything is done to make the race as safe as possible.
It is very sad when horses are lost but, hard as it sounds, that is life and that is what they are bred for. Without such sports they wouldn't exist in the first place, you'd agree? As you know horses are lost in their stables, in their sleep, in their fields, out hunting, eventing, hacking even - as well as in all forms of racing. You only have to look at the amount of entries made for the Grand National every year, along with the guaranteed field size of 40 and many more that didn't get in, to see that plenty of trainers, owners and jockeys are happy to contest the race.
Let's not let this year's fatalities provoke the reaction to get rid of such an institution.
I can see what you are saying about the Grand National but it is an institution in itself, a great tradition and something which brings a lot of happiness to a lot of people. The atmosphere at Aintree prior to, during, and immediately after the National is unlike that which you get anywhere, even dare I say it, at Cheltenham. Horses aren't lost in the race every year, and safety is paramount, changes are made to the track every year. The fences themselves are far smaller than they were even ten years ago and everything is done to make the race as safe as possible.
It is very sad when horses are lost but, hard as it sounds, that is life and that is what they are bred for. Without such sports they wouldn't exist in the first place, you'd agree? As you know horses are lost in their stables, in their sleep, in their fields, out hunting, eventing, hacking even - as well as in all forms of racing. You only have to look at the amount of entries made for the Grand National every year, along with the guaranteed field size of 40 and many more that didn't get in, to see that plenty of trainers, owners and jockeys are happy to contest the race.
Let's not let this year's fatalities provoke the reaction to get rid of such an institution.
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Cybrandian
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What does everyone think about the new policy (I didn't know about this) of omitting fences?
My first reaction is that whilst it may seem like a safe and sensible idea, all it did to serve was to highlight there were deaths on the course. Bad PR.
Is it necessary? I do remember in the old days some stricken animals getting hit, but the red discs seemed to do their job ok (correct me if there have been accidents).
And finally, I think the BBC direction is going to cause a lot of bad PR. 20 odd years ago, Julian Wilson called "and they're being served to the edge of bechers to avoid a dead horse", he got a bollocking and by the re-run it had been dubbed out.
This year we got to see inside the green sheets live and then in slow mo.
My first reaction is that whilst it may seem like a safe and sensible idea, all it did to serve was to highlight there were deaths on the course. Bad PR.
Is it necessary? I do remember in the old days some stricken animals getting hit, but the red discs seemed to do their job ok (correct me if there have been accidents).
And finally, I think the BBC direction is going to cause a lot of bad PR. 20 odd years ago, Julian Wilson called "and they're being served to the edge of bechers to avoid a dead horse", he got a bollocking and by the re-run it had been dubbed out.
This year we got to see inside the green sheets live and then in slow mo.
Shadow Leader
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Omitting those fences was the only possible way forward in terms of safety today. We still would have seen the tarpaulin had they jumped Becher's, yet also have the unedifying sight of watching horses dodge it.
Interestingly enough I've seen no reports of Ballabriggs bleeding. I'll have to re-watch it but he most definitely had a fair bit of blood around the bottom of his nose and in his mouth, as well as a spot on his sheepskin noseband. He may have bitten his tongue, or he may have burst, it looked like the latter to me. He certainly had his head on the ground and was having to have it picked up, poor lad.
Interestingly enough I've seen no reports of Ballabriggs bleeding. I'll have to re-watch it but he most definitely had a fair bit of blood around the bottom of his nose and in his mouth, as well as a spot on his sheepskin noseband. He may have bitten his tongue, or he may have burst, it looked like the latter to me. He certainly had his head on the ground and was having to have it picked up, poor lad.
Cybrandian
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Well previously the shots would be from the ground, and operated by a human who could frame the shot to avoid anything being too obvious. Think of all the years of grand national fatalities and see how few you can spot on re-runs.
I think the cameras set up at bechers were on a high wire, and I wonder if there was no alternative picture available?
Fair enough if omitting the fences is the only way forward.
I think the cameras set up at bechers were on a high wire, and I wonder if there was no alternative picture available?
Fair enough if omitting the fences is the only way forward.
Well, if the horses didn't exist, they couldn't get hurt, so that's pretty much a Catch 22 discussion! I agree, though, there's a huge industry depending on TBs being bred and to stop doing so would not be practical.
As I said, I used to think exactly the same way about horse being fatally injured when racing - it's obviously old age catching up with me that I am no longer feel quite the same about the Grand National. I agree that improvements have been made but are they enough? I don't mean the severity or not of the fences but why do we have to have 40 horses in the race ? Loose horses are a very real danger and there are always more in the GN than most other races.
Is there no way of preventing that incredible sprint in a 4m4f race for the first four fences? Jockey/Owner//Trainer penalties maybe - difficult to impose, I know but every year we hear the same old platitudes about jockeys being told not to speed off and every year they blatantly ignore the advice and fallers from the get go result.
At least poor ORNAIS looked to die instantly - there is that as a small mercy, I guess.
As I said, I used to think exactly the same way about horse being fatally injured when racing - it's obviously old age catching up with me that I am no longer feel quite the same about the Grand National. I agree that improvements have been made but are they enough? I don't mean the severity or not of the fences but why do we have to have 40 horses in the race ? Loose horses are a very real danger and there are always more in the GN than most other races.
Is there no way of preventing that incredible sprint in a 4m4f race for the first four fences? Jockey/Owner//Trainer penalties maybe - difficult to impose, I know but every year we hear the same old platitudes about jockeys being told not to speed off and every year they blatantly ignore the advice and fallers from the get go result.
At least poor ORNAIS looked to die instantly - there is that as a small mercy, I guess.
Obviously horrible and very sad.
However, you must have known what may happen if you turn on your tv. In that case, why moan here? I hate the idea of fox hunting, and certainly wouldn't watch it were it ever to be in tv, just in case.
However, you must have known what may happen if you turn on your tv. In that case, why moan here? I hate the idea of fox hunting, and certainly wouldn't watch it were it ever to be in tv, just in case.
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The problem would seem to be the inability to get the knacker van onto the course to hoist the outright dead horses straight in and away. If the one who died immediately - ORNAIS? - could've been removed from the course, then there wouldn't have been the give-away tarp on the ground. But the Blimp shots are marvellous - they cover much more of the field than ground-based cams can, and give a much fuller picture of the course and positions of the horses. Of course, it takes pix of whatever is below it - you can't have it both, or all, ways. You either do away with the Blimp pix (which I think immensely enhanced Cheltenham, too) in case there's a corpse on the ground, or you keep them and accept that there may be one.
If you can't get a dead horse off the part of the track where horses are going to run - tastefully dumped to the side, as I've seen a few times at Irish gaffs, and not always with a tarp for the sensitive - then you must wave horses round the obstacle. You couldn't possibly risk them coming over the landing side and straight into the path of the body, not unless you wanted the possibility of another.
I'd say it's unfortunate not to get knacker trucks out there quickly to cart off the dead, even though that does have rather Coliseum-like overtones. You can't bring an ordinary ambulance to disguise the fact the horse has died, since the van has a winch and chains inside, plus things like a drip tray (sorry to be graphic, but as we're racing fans, we ought to know) for any blood. I suppose you could customise a knacker van so it looked like an ambulance, to save some people's horror. But there'd be no doubt to the spectators within yards of the jump that a horse had died, and covering it up was the only option, it seems, today.
Perhaps, though, the course will give some thought to early removals.
If you can't get a dead horse off the part of the track where horses are going to run - tastefully dumped to the side, as I've seen a few times at Irish gaffs, and not always with a tarp for the sensitive - then you must wave horses round the obstacle. You couldn't possibly risk them coming over the landing side and straight into the path of the body, not unless you wanted the possibility of another.
I'd say it's unfortunate not to get knacker trucks out there quickly to cart off the dead, even though that does have rather Coliseum-like overtones. You can't bring an ordinary ambulance to disguise the fact the horse has died, since the van has a winch and chains inside, plus things like a drip tray (sorry to be graphic, but as we're racing fans, we ought to know) for any blood. I suppose you could customise a knacker van so it looked like an ambulance, to save some people's horror. But there'd be no doubt to the spectators within yards of the jump that a horse had died, and covering it up was the only option, it seems, today.
Perhaps, though, the course will give some thought to early removals.
Cybrandian
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>You either do away with the Blimp pix (which I think immensely enhanced
>Cheltenham, too) in case there's a corpse on the ground, or you keep them
>and accept that there may be one.
Or you have an alternative camera ready so the director can make a dynamic decision.
The blimp pix enchancing the coverage is a matter of opinion, one I don't share. The classic view of Bechers that has worked for decades was more than good enough.
>Cheltenham, too) in case there's a corpse on the ground, or you keep them
>and accept that there may be one.
Or you have an alternative camera ready so the director can make a dynamic decision.
The blimp pix enchancing the coverage is a matter of opinion, one I don't share. The classic view of Bechers that has worked for decades was more than good enough.
jinnyj
Senior Jockey
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These are some pretty bad shots - especially of Dooney's Gate. Would think Animal Aid will have a field day.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375210/Grand-National-2011-Ballabriggs-winsl-day-drama-Aintree.html
I do hate to see horses getting hurt/killed which is why I was never interested in training jumpers myself (I get far too emtionally attached to all my horses). We as humans attach an emotional side to events which I seriously doubt horses do. Therefore in their limited comprehension, they are going out there to run round, jump some fences and finish in front of their companions at their riders urging. Its what they are used to. Those that do think about things will quickly work out "this ain't for me anymore" and it should be obvious to the jockey that that is the case (Channibar as an extreme case). Alot of horses really enjoy themselves round there and time and time again go back and jump round happily.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375210/Grand-National-2011-Ballabriggs-winsl-day-drama-Aintree.html
I do hate to see horses getting hurt/killed which is why I was never interested in training jumpers myself (I get far too emtionally attached to all my horses). We as humans attach an emotional side to events which I seriously doubt horses do. Therefore in their limited comprehension, they are going out there to run round, jump some fences and finish in front of their companions at their riders urging. Its what they are used to. Those that do think about things will quickly work out "this ain't for me anymore" and it should be obvious to the jockey that that is the case (Channibar as an extreme case). Alot of horses really enjoy themselves round there and time and time again go back and jump round happily.
Gaz's Way De Solzen
Apprentice
I cant believe they have put that photo of Dooney's Gate on there.
Those pictures will cause a shock tomorrow but will be forgotten about by the general public by the time the race comes around next year. What might have made a bigger difference is the chaos that ensued after the race as the horses were being washed down.
The race itself took its usual toll but it is a race of great merit and having another McCain winning gives it another 30 years of publicity!!
The race itself took its usual toll but it is a race of great merit and having another McCain winning gives it another 30 years of publicity!!
G
Gearoid
Guest
Can you fill me in?
5,000 killed each year because they're injured or unwanted? For Christ's sake - why on earth does a paper put this nonsense figure out? I suppose it's to shit-stir, nothing else, and create more controversy.
One of the reasons I've thought it important to record as many horse 'departures' as possible is because while there are inevitably fatalities in racing (the majority, naturally enough, being in NH), there are also lots of gallops/paddock incidents which result in fatalities. But most importantly, by keeping some sort of record, you can give the lie to false statements like the above. If you include the breeding stock, then you are deliberately skewing figures and probably in a way where you don't ever quite know the full details. If foals die because of illness, then according to these stats, they're part of 5,000 killed by the racing industry? Utter bosh.
You might as well say that every non-wild animal that dies is because humans are responsible for breeding them - every litter's runt which fails to thrive, every spastic kitten or influenza-infected budgie are all dead because of humans being cruel enough to breed them.
Look, right now, following the four fatalities incurred on three courses today, my 'fatality' figures (not just departures to retirement or into another job) stand at 76.
I know we're missing Irish data and I know there are probably several horses who've left racing because they've quietly died at home due to colic (which any horse can get) or some other ailment unrelated to racing activity. So let's say 100, out of 18,000 in training. That is probably pretty much the kind of stat that would occur in any demographic, human or animal. For every 20,000 people on any day, there are probably going to be up to 500 in the year who die because of illness, accident, heart attacks, and doing their job.
Really, I am not a statistician, but I wish I knew one, so that we could all demonstrate that such figures - while publicised through voyeuristic photos (no respect there for the connections of DOONEY'S GATE, is there - would you publish a picture of a person being killed? Presumably, yes) and endless tv coverage, don't represent an unusual figure of deaths per thousand animals.
What the figures do show, however, are that the deaths (taking into account home accidents and illnesses) still show a significant majority are incurred hurdling and chasing. There is no getting away from that as a fact or a statistic.
One of the reasons I've thought it important to record as many horse 'departures' as possible is because while there are inevitably fatalities in racing (the majority, naturally enough, being in NH), there are also lots of gallops/paddock incidents which result in fatalities. But most importantly, by keeping some sort of record, you can give the lie to false statements like the above. If you include the breeding stock, then you are deliberately skewing figures and probably in a way where you don't ever quite know the full details. If foals die because of illness, then according to these stats, they're part of 5,000 killed by the racing industry? Utter bosh.
You might as well say that every non-wild animal that dies is because humans are responsible for breeding them - every litter's runt which fails to thrive, every spastic kitten or influenza-infected budgie are all dead because of humans being cruel enough to breed them.
Look, right now, following the four fatalities incurred on three courses today, my 'fatality' figures (not just departures to retirement or into another job) stand at 76.
I know we're missing Irish data and I know there are probably several horses who've left racing because they've quietly died at home due to colic (which any horse can get) or some other ailment unrelated to racing activity. So let's say 100, out of 18,000 in training. That is probably pretty much the kind of stat that would occur in any demographic, human or animal. For every 20,000 people on any day, there are probably going to be up to 500 in the year who die because of illness, accident, heart attacks, and doing their job.
Really, I am not a statistician, but I wish I knew one, so that we could all demonstrate that such figures - while publicised through voyeuristic photos (no respect there for the connections of DOONEY'S GATE, is there - would you publish a picture of a person being killed? Presumably, yes) and endless tv coverage, don't represent an unusual figure of deaths per thousand animals.
What the figures do show, however, are that the deaths (taking into account home accidents and illnesses) still show a significant majority are incurred hurdling and chasing. There is no getting away from that as a fact or a statistic.
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BlazingWalker
At the Start
Pretty horrific photo's but stills are always the same. It looks like DG could have been more injured by West End Rocker landing on him than the fall but hard to tell.
Another re-design of Bechers will probably be on the cards now. I hate to see the fatalaties as much as the next person but no doubt after the initial outrage by press & public over the next week or so it will all be forgotten and we'll be here next year saying the same things!!
There is no solution to avoiding equine deaths,we either do away with the GN or carry on. The latter is most likely. No doubt in years to come, the GN will probably end up being a cartoon/fantasy version for everybodies enjoyment with no possilbility of any injuries to man or horse.
Another re-design of Bechers will probably be on the cards now. I hate to see the fatalaties as much as the next person but no doubt after the initial outrage by press & public over the next week or so it will all be forgotten and we'll be here next year saying the same things!!
There is no solution to avoiding equine deaths,we either do away with the GN or carry on. The latter is most likely. No doubt in years to come, the GN will probably end up being a cartoon/fantasy version for everybodies enjoyment with no possilbility of any injuries to man or horse.
Very Very Ordinary
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Nice bit of 18s, courtesy of Joe C; just the one win bet, so pleased with that.
As far as the fatalities are concerned, I think doing nothing isn't an option. Emasculating the fences further would take away the uniqueness of the race, but I'd give some thought to having the first brought closer to the start to prevent the cavalry charge developing, think seriously about the number of runners, maybe limiting to 34 or so, and encourage watering in these conditions.
As far as the fatalities are concerned, I think doing nothing isn't an option. Emasculating the fences further would take away the uniqueness of the race, but I'd give some thought to having the first brought closer to the start to prevent the cavalry charge developing, think seriously about the number of runners, maybe limiting to 34 or so, and encourage watering in these conditions.
Connections looked prepared and threw buckets of water over horses straight after line. Jocks dismounted. Confusion among press, lads hugging Maguire, Davy Russell reminding Maguire to weigh in etc etc. Then horse and jock walked in separately which is obviously not normal. BBC did nothing to explain what was going on. That is what people will remember.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
First National winner I have backed since Red Marauder, but it was not a satisfying race.
The fatalities, the poor television coverage and the mayhem after the race made it all a very strange and uncomfortable spectacle. I feel a frisson of guilt for being a part of that.
SL says that the two horses died doing something they loved. But the whole thing is crazy; 40 runners, fast ground, extreme distance, roaring crowd, jockeys going too quickly, large fences.
Horses also love showjumping.
And eating carrots.
The fatalities, the poor television coverage and the mayhem after the race made it all a very strange and uncomfortable spectacle. I feel a frisson of guilt for being a part of that.
SL says that the two horses died doing something they loved. But the whole thing is crazy; 40 runners, fast ground, extreme distance, roaring crowd, jockeys going too quickly, large fences.
Horses also love showjumping.
And eating carrots.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Further to Cantoris' point. I am an experienced racing fan, and I didn't have a clue about what was going on.
BBC need a director who knows racing and doesn't panic. Maguire and McCain were concerned with the horse, but Rishi was trying to interview them. Police and security guards were having a job to get them all back to the winners' enclosure.
That was the time when BBC should have cut to Mick Fitz or Balding to talk shite about the spectacle, or to replay the last 2f. Not to show complete chaos.
BBC need a director who knows racing and doesn't panic. Maguire and McCain were concerned with the horse, but Rishi was trying to interview them. Police and security guards were having a job to get them all back to the winners' enclosure.
That was the time when BBC should have cut to Mick Fitz or Balding to talk shite about the spectacle, or to replay the last 2f. Not to show complete chaos.
Shadow Leader
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The Daily Mail is a fucking shitty rag deserving of nothing than to be used as cat litter. Utterly disgraceful how they're stirring the pot by a) publishing full size photographs of fatal falls b) then giving those scum at Animal Aid a mouthpiece by asking them for quotes and worst of all c) not even mentioning that poor lad Peter Toole who is lying in a hospital bed, heavily sedated and in a critical condition. No, all they want to do is stir up a storm amongst the tree-huggers. It's a disgrace and I for one will be sending in a complaint to the Press Association about the article.
Bar - if only it were as simple as 'horses like eating carrots'. Please, don't be patronising - and anyway, I didn't say or allude to the horses dying doing what they love. It is true however - only witness Chaninbar to see that if a horse doesn't want to do something, it won't do it. Trouble is, people who don't know horses struggle enormously with that concept. A horse won't do something unless THEY want to do it.
Bar - if only it were as simple as 'horses like eating carrots'. Please, don't be patronising - and anyway, I didn't say or allude to the horses dying doing what they love. It is true however - only witness Chaninbar to see that if a horse doesn't want to do something, it won't do it. Trouble is, people who don't know horses struggle enormously with that concept. A horse won't do something unless THEY want to do it.
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Bar the Bull
At the Start
Sorry, didn't mean to be patronising. I agree that horses love racing. But there are a lot easier scenarios than what we saw at 4.15 this afternoon. And although your point about horses not doing something unless they want to do it makes sense, did they know they were going to have to run 4.5 miles?