The slaughter and abandoning of horses...

Quasi, SS!

A horse is an animal I consider more of a pet (I am well aware a racehorse is not a pet!), whereas a cow, pig, sheep are reared as a source of food (eventually in the case of a cow). This is only a personal perspective and not something I think is not open to everyone having their own opinion on.
 
The number of races in Britain has increased 35% since 2001. In Ireland, 27% over the same period.

During that time, the average runners per race has stayed relatively constant (between 10-11 in Britain, 14 in Ireland).

Should we not expect the horse population to increase in line with this? Has this over-production simply been feeding demand from a sport which has now grown too big?

With regards to the stallion tax-subsidy, has it actually encouraged over-production, or has it just hugely influenced where the over-production has taken place?
 
I'm not sure that story regarding the Queen is true. Someone I know who trained a horse that she bred, bought it from her at the sales, ran it for a number of years and then it retired to a racehorse rehabilitation centre. It was featured in article, which, obviously, someone to do with the Queen read and they were then contacted by Sandringham asking if it would be okay for the horse to go and live out his days there. This was by no means a great horse, it was 70 odd rated on the flat, I think, and it was great for the Queen (or her people) to get the horse back to retire there.
 
There certainly isn't if you have to resort to being offensive to make your point. If your inference is that just because I support a humane and properly conducted horsemeat industry then that's offensive to you, then you're entitled to your view and I'd like to try and understand your viewpoint and maybe clear up some popular misconceptions about it. However, you may of course be vegan, in which case fair play to you and yes, my views would indeed be unacceptable to you.

Firstly, I find your remarks about offensiveness & making a point to be patronising - your value judgements belong just to you: I don't accept them.

Secondly, I think there is no such thing as a 'humane' horsemeat industry: it's a contradiction in terms. It's not offensive to me that you support the horsemeat industry - it's the horsemeat industry that is offensive.
 
I'm not sure that story regarding the Queen is true. Someone I know who trained a horse that she bred, bought it from her at the sales, ran it for a number of years and then it retired to a racehorse rehabilitation centre. It was featured in article, which, obviously, someone to do with the Queen read and they were then contacted by Sandringham asking if it would be okay for the horse to go and live out his days there. This was by no means a great horse, it was 70 odd rated on the flat, I think, and it was great for the Queen (or her people) to get the horse back to retire there.

It's easy to see how this sort of thing happens. A horse changes hands, changes hands again and before you know anything about it they have passed to slaughter. The only way to ensure that it doesn't happen (in an over-produced industry) is to take personal responsibility for all horses that you own... few owners (if any) do that.
 
Well, I hate to repeat myself, but dead racehorses are quite often offered to zoos for their big cats, if the owners haven't got other plans for the bodies. So the end result for some is to be used as meat. That's definitely the case for some put down at Folkestone, with Port Lympne Zoo so nearby as a, er, consumer.

I don't see a horsemeat industry as worse than any meat industry - I don't value 'a horse' more than I value 'a cow'. It's the emotion we attach to whatever animal we have, whether it's a beloved gekko, cat, parrot, or ancient sheep we once hand-reared that informs most of our feelings, surely. If we felt truly appalled by equine wastage, none of us would support an industry which kills 'n' amount of animals a year in the name of sport. One could say the same for some old or injured greyhounds, or dogs not recognised by Kennel Club standards - many will be put to sleep, even if they could be mended, because they can't do what they're bred to do. Yet there must be thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of punters who wouldn't drop a quid in a collection bucket for ex-racehorses. Now that I do find 'offensive'.

No horse has to be born in the Western world. They are all used for the amusement of humans - whether you're barrel-racing, eventing, hacking, harness racing or watching the Lippizaners perform high school work. They're only created for our pleasure, and they all have to die some time. The recession has nothing to do with keeping them, overall - but at some point arrangements must be made for their despatch, because it's only a tiny percentage which do the neat thing and quietly pass away in their sleep. (A bit like us - we dwindle away if we don't die earlyish, disappearing into imbecility or terminal infirmity. Unfortunately, in my view, we're not yet allowed to be humanely despatched!)

So, while it would be sweet to think that every animal we demand is produced for our leisure hours will be decently treated and gently sent to sleep, this is far from the case. Mandatory registration of all animals used for leisure, the pet trade, whatever, just as accountability for all 'domestic' animals such as cattle and sheep, ought to be brought in. Racehorses are microchipped - 'gypsy' ponies, often found dumped, aren't. There's irresponsible breeding, irresponsible ownership, and far too many loopholes in the animal-owning system to guarantee that horses, like thrown-away dogs and cats, let alone other creatures once the pampered pet, meet with a graceful exit. At present, the dumped ones often end up in slaughterhouses - that's the reality. If we don't want it to be the reality - then stick a quid in the bucket, please!
 
I don't see a horsemeat industry as worse than any meat industry - I don't value 'a horse' more than I value 'a cow'.

Although I have some sympathy with this view, the difference is surely that cows are processed to be eaten and intentioned as such in the food industry. Racehorses are not, it is an afterthought. If pushed I could probably eat another human being, so while I would not rule out eating horse I choose not to do so.

It seems to me that ex-racehorses can live a wretched life, very different from that of a cow bred for slaughter.
 
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Firstly, I find your remarks about offensiveness & making a point to be patronising - your value judgements belong just to you: I don't accept them.

Secondly, I think there is no such thing as a 'humane' horsemeat industry: it's a contradiction in terms. It's not offensive to me that you support the horsemeat industry - it's the horsemeat industry that is offensive.

And making your 'no comment' remark wasn't patronising - purleeze!

You haven't stated whether or not you are vegan - presumably you aren't. What is illogical to the point of offensiveness is the acceptance by folk that somehow having a well-conducted horsemeat industry is 'wrong' yet going quite happily into a supermarket and buying a joint of beef or lamb. I would far rather any horse I bred which, for whatever reason, was unable to fulfill a career as a pleasure horse (which would include horse racing) went straight into the food chain and had a death which at least meant the animal was productive rather than it ended up half-starved in some field somewhere being neglected. Which scenario, if the attitude you and so many others continue to hold against a properly run horsemeat industry, will continue to accelerate.

If it was deemed to be generally acceptable to send horses which were no longer wanted to a centre for fattening and then kill, it would virtually eliminate live horse transport to countries where eating horsemeat is the norm, provide a useful income and maybe even diversification opportunity for many farmers. It would also keep many smaller abattoirs in business. And that means a more humane meat industry for every sheep/cow/pig/goat in the UK (and Ireland!). Losing small abattoirs means we are all condemning animals to long haulage - something I would prefer to avoid if possible for my stock but which simply isn't always possible now.

So many ex racehorses are virtually unrideable and also many of the people who were once able to retrain and rehome the rest are no longer in a financial position to keep doing so. At least ensure there is a quick, humane and actually useful end for them, rather than either a protracted life of real negligence or simply them eventually being put down and incinerated - which is adding to the carbon footprint as well.
 
Incineration costs are probably another reason why some of these horses get thrown away. I think, a few years ago, it was around £600 for a biggish horse, certainly an NH type. It takes a long time and burns a lot of fuel to reduce some 1,500 lbs-odd of healthy, muscled flesh to ash. I've no doubt that in line with everything except prize money and return of sales that cost has gone up, too, so if it's now around £700 (someone please tell me!), I can see (although I don't at all like) why the animals are just deserted.
 
My rather naive view is that if you wish to buy a thoroughbred, you should be obliged to pay into a horse welfare fund which would be spent on looking after horses when they are retired, unwanted etc.

It's not naive at all. I'm on the owners association in Ireland and we had Brian Kearney (of Moscow Flyer fame) and Jessie Harrington present to us on the Irish Horse Welfare Trust. They do great work with retired horses but have a funding problem and were asking for €1 per entry (only payable if you run, rather than get balloted out). It was agreed but it's an opt in for owner rather than another charge from HRI. So we are getting there.....slowly.
 
My rather naive view is that if you wish to buy a thoroughbred, you should be obliged to pay into a horse welfare fund which would be spent on looking after horses when they are retired, unwanted etc. I hate the thought of a slaughterhouse for a horse as much as being put to sleep on a course.

The idea has its merits but I do have a slight problem with it - namely, why should those responsible owners who will always make sure there is a decent home for their horses once they've finished racing, fund the looking after of animals from those owners who couldn't give a shite where they end up after they have retired? We own seven TBs [three of which are mine outright] and we will make sure all of them have a home once they have retired from racing, whether we keep them ourselves or not.

Songsheet - I may have misunderstood one of your early postings as I'm not familiar with slaughterhouse terminology. By saying that the dead weight of a horse 'on the hook' would be around 100/120kg do you mean the weight of the usable meat once it has been butchered? Since the average TB would weigh around 500kg, I'm assuming that it probably the case?
 
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Steve, yes, of course racehorses aren't raised for meat in the UK, BUT a lot of other equines are. The 'round-up' (rather euphemistic term for what's often just a cull) of native ponies sees lots of them off to the slaughterhouses, and if you do go to a horsemeat market, you'll see plenty of fat, cross-bred, rough little fellows who are there just to be used for the pet trade. So, one might ask, why should we be so twee about the end result of racehorses? We can hardly say, oh, okay, it's fine those 20 young little ponies are shot, but it's not okay if Zippittydoodah faces the same fate? It starts to sound like it's one set of ethics for one breed of horse, and another set of ethics for others. Which, of course, it is in France and Belgium, as we know.

If we're squeamish about racehorses ending up in slaughterhouses because 'they're not raised for meat like cows, etc.', then how can we neatly pocket those concerns when a bunch of terrified little piebalds is herded round the ring, being sold specifically for meat? There are plenty of stories from tiny rescue centres with miniscule funds trying hard to outbuy the meatmen, and failing. How good does that make us feel? There's overproduction everywhere, and there's production of equines - albeit not, for the most part anyway, signposted back to HYPERION - for a genuine meat market. So, sorry, but horses (or more often their smaller counterparts) DO form part of the food chain.
 
Yes, some ponies do go for meat but you have to remember that economics comes into play for the horsemeat trade, as it does everything else. One of the key attributes of horsemeat is the low fat to meat ratio and therefore one of its main benefits is that it's healthy. In the same way venison is. So a thoroughbred carcase, which has obviously been well fed and looked after if coming straight off the track, is a reasonably attractive proposition. Fat, small ponies are much less so.

Deadweight, Shadz, is the carcase on the hook after all the skin, innards and head has been removed - mainly usable meat but still with a fairly high proportion of bone to meat ratio. Usually work on around 50% of live weight, so it may be more than 120kg for a good-sized TB. The heifer we sent that made 611kg d/w probably weighed about 1100 kg on the hoof. She went straight to kill, not via a market and in her case, being a pedigree that we'd shown and therefore haltered and travelled considerably, she wouldn't have made anything of the journey, as she also went with another barren dairy cow she'd been bunked up with.

Did I want to send her ? No, I didn't - as anyone who knows me and knew her would tell you, I was upset she had to go but, she was an absolute non-breeder (we'd tried for four years to get her in-calf), she was hooge (biggest Blue we had) and there is no other reason to have kept her, as we all have limited resources. OK, so we're talking commerce here but money governs whether we can keep an animal or not ultimately. That heifer paid for more forage and feed for the rest who can be productive and I really don't see why the same concept doesn't apply to horses that are not wanted.

Maybe one important issue is avoiding the market situation - cattle and sheep are more able to cope with that situation than horses, especially highly strung TBs and so if there was a proper solution whereby sensible groups of horses could be managed prior to despatch (either straight to a licensed abattoir or - even better - on farm slaughter) and, if run by horse charities, the money they generated was ploughed back into equine welfare, then I don't see anything either repulsive or offensive about that process.

Of course, with the DEATHRA in charge of slaughter of livestock, that ain't gonna happen anytime soon unless people continue to lobby their MPs for a change in policy to encourage the return of small abattoirs which can be run economically and on-farm slaughter for food consumption.
 
Surely the overproduction of racehorses is directly linked to a surplus of horses that are neglected. I’d agree that with ownership comes responsibility, but in the real world this doesn’t tend to happen in all cases or even very often, for a variety of reasons.

No,the overproduction of racehorses is directly linked to a surplus of horses .

Neglecting them is a different matter and is down to the economics of caring for them.
 
The Queen's horse was Cricket Ball - and if I recollect rightly was found in a poor condition in Belgium after having been sold to race there.
 
why should those responsible owners who will always make sure there is a decent home for their horses once they've finished racing, fund the looking after of animals from those owners who couldn't give a shite where they end up after they have retired?

I ask the same question everytime I pay my taxes and hear of some lazy lout whose be on the dole since year dot and couldn't be bothered getting off his backside and get some training etc. But we live in that world and not communism. Similarly with horses, those that can afford (or have farmland, space) pay for those that cannot.
 
It's not naive at all. I'm on the owners association in Ireland and we had Brian Kearney (of Moscow Flyer fame) and Jessie Harrington present to us on the Irish Horse Welfare Trust. They do great work with retired horses but have a funding problem and were asking for €1 per entry (only payable if you run, rather than get balloted out). It was agreed but it's an opt in for owner rather than another charge from HRI. So we are getting there.....slowly.

That's great to hear, fair dues.

Do you have any link on info on this? Thanks
 
It's a good initiative, along with the levy breeders can opt in to pay when they register their foals - yes, I do pay - twice over, in fact both when I regsiter them and monthly with a subscription to Greatwood.

I'm not sure quite you mean when you say 'farmland', Cantoris, or if I am being overly sensitive if aimed at me or even farmers in general but it's naive at best to assume that farmers somehow have a magic wand that can keep other people's horses for buckshee. If one I've bred gets in real trouble, I'll take it back here, as I do believe I have an innate resposibility - up to a point - for its welfare but deep down, it's down to whoever last bought the horse to do right by it and breeders shouldn't be there as some sort of safety net permitting less responsible folk to pass the buck.

There appears to be some sort of misguided idea that if you have a farm, then somehow it doesn't cost you anything to keep stock on it. Just to quosh that particular misconception, land doesn't maintain itself. Grassland needs to be fertilized; rolled; harrowed and topped with machinery that doesn't just appear from nowhere - it has to be bought or hired in. Hedges have to be trimmed and maintained annually, so unless you have your own hedgetrimmer to go on your own tractor, that has to be hired in too. To be really efficient, that same land should also yield forage of some sort for at least one cut, preferably two. So you need to have a baler, probably a wrapper for haylage too. OK, at present you can claim SFP on grassland until 2012 but thereafter...? And your farmland is, presumably, operating on a business basis with whatever happens to be your main farming activity and in my experience, having spare farmland just doesn't happen! Horses cost to keep, regardless of how much land you have, needing farrier, wormer, hard feed and forage and bedding, as everyone here surely knows, plus some sort of housing for emergencies at least.

And if the general concensus is that farmers get landed with unwanted horses, then believe me, the horsemeat industry will get a kick up the backside and it will start really operating, because those horses won't be idling anyone's fields for long!
 
It was simply an observation that if you have land (I know nothing about your background), and I don't, it would cost me more to keep a horse out of training than you i.e. if I gave you one of my horses to mind, you would obviously want to make a few bob out of it as there's no such thing as a free lunch.
 
OOT fees are generally just slightly over half the cost of in-training fees, I think. I was quoted £19 per day instead of £32 per day at Sheena West's, since there's still the morning muck-out, rugging, food/hay, bedding, farrier, etc. as required. Even if you have your own land - and it'd have to be a good seven to ten acres to support one horse for a bit, you wouldn't be chucking out a clipped horse in this weather without rugging, and bringing in at night.
 
Yes - and no! The only item that would cost me less than you would be my time, which I can cost at zero. Everything else does have a cost, it's just I don't have to pay that cost per day, as anyone who doesn't have land would have to. When you break it down item by item (especially if you are maybe renting your land or have a mortgage to pay on it), then the cost is honestly quite horrifying, believe me....

The profit margin you refer to has become eroded more and more, as obviously times are tough and people get competitive for any income. However, there comes a point when it simply isn't worth doing below a certain amount/day and that's when you call it a day, as so many evidently are doing!
 
I ain't gonna argue with any of that as I simply haven't the experience.....we just pay someone to look after our horses during the Summer.
 
No,the overproduction of racehorses is directly linked to a surplus of horses .

Neglecting them is a different matter and is down to the economics of caring for them.

Exactly so... The economics don't work because the industry is overproduced.
 
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