Tanlic
Senior Jockey
The way that thing jumped the last it reminded me of the rodeo bull in Hooters:lol:...........lucky to stay on board but was clearly getting the worse of the argument anyway.
Tom Scudamore Great Ride Thread
- Thread starter harry
- Start date
BennyB
Senior Jockey
I'm no fan of Scudamore but you seem to think that every time he rides a loser it's down to jockey error. The horse made a bad mistake, not his fault.
No. There would be many more posts if I thought that.
I just find him very weak when he is involved in a close finish and mostly loses them.
I agree a top jockey should be effective in a finish. This should mean riding more winners than runners up, and more runners up than third placed horses.
Scudamore's record in the last five seasons comfortably meets that criterion, and does so better than most:
NHF 44 wins, 27 seconds, 21 thirds
Hurdle 203 wins, 167 seconds, 160 thirds
Chase 181 wins, 144 seconds, 101 thirds
Scudamore's record in the last five seasons comfortably meets that criterion, and does so better than most:
NHF 44 wins, 27 seconds, 21 thirds
Hurdle 203 wins, 167 seconds, 160 thirds
Chase 181 wins, 144 seconds, 101 thirds
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You seem ever so concerned with proving my posts wrong and defending Scu for some unknown reason...maybe you should post the links??
Watching his rides once is enough....replays??...do me a favour!
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
That proves nothing IMO
Denis O'Reagan is as good in a finish than any but using your analysis he's garbage
http://www.attheraces.com/racecard/Stratford/21-May-2016/2035
Harry. I saw the last two races you refer to, and I've since watched them back.
In the Towcester race his horse was out on its feet after the last, and was conceding two stones to a horse who was running for in a handicap for the first time, obviously on a very good mark, and who was still full of running going through the line.
Willem made a shuddering mistake at the last and clearly lost all momentum and the race because of the mistake. Certainly not from Scu's ride.
It may be that the earlier races you refer to he was to blame. I can't remember them so can't say, but you are way off the mark with the last two. Not even AP would have won on them, so why they're on this thread I really don't know.
When you are so clearly wrong on the last two counts I can only assume you are now looking at this rides with a clear bias.
In the Towcester race his horse was out on its feet after the last, and was conceding two stones to a horse who was running for in a handicap for the first time, obviously on a very good mark, and who was still full of running going through the line.
Willem made a shuddering mistake at the last and clearly lost all momentum and the race because of the mistake. Certainly not from Scu's ride.
It may be that the earlier races you refer to he was to blame. I can't remember them so can't say, but you are way off the mark with the last two. Not even AP would have won on them, so why they're on this thread I really don't know.
When you are so clearly wrong on the last two counts I can only assume you are now looking at this rides with a clear bias.
Tanlic, the stats suggest Scu doesn't have a particular problem with riding a finish. They don't prove it, I accept, but in my view they're enough to put the onus of proof on anyone wanting to say different.
My own particular interest/bias, Harry, is that I won some nice money last year on Moon Racer and this year on Thistlecrack, and Scu never gave me any worries on either horse. I think it's true that he used to go off too fast sometimes, which would mean his horse had nothing left for a finish but I think he's a better jockey nowadays.
My own particular interest/bias, Harry, is that I won some nice money last year on Moon Racer and this year on Thistlecrack, and Scu never gave me any worries on either horse. I think it's true that he used to go off too fast sometimes, which would mean his horse had nothing left for a finish but I think he's a better jockey nowadays.
Victoria Pendleton could have won on those two.
I hope Thistlecrack never needs a fight at the finish.
Yes Grey, I am biased as I think he is way off the standard required for the stable he rides for. You might be right and he may have improved but most of the top boys (and Nina) would wipe him out in a finish if it was close. I know and appreciate that he has fans on here so I will leave it at that.
Good luck to all who back him.
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Although he's not a jockey I pay much attention too he's certainly not a jockey that would have me worrying if my cash was on.
I spent a lot of time with jockeys in my younger days, some of who stayed at my house when riding in Scotland.
The respect they have for each other is the first thing you notice and the second one is they have no time for punters who slag off their colleagues.
You need to have ridden racehorses to realise how unpredictable they are and in many cases uncooperative.
Example: I used to ride Tregarron out at Ken Olivers back in the 70's he was heading to Carlisle (Lost to Gordon's Tamalin). The first time I rode him, a few days before we are doing a bit of roadwork when he spots a tree turns his backside towards it and backs under the tree to try and push me off his back. Colin Tinkler told me he does that with everyone and I'm the poor sod who has to ride him (Laughing). I've had horses stop in their tracks to look at something that catches their eye and no matter what you do they won't move until they are good and ready.
When you have experienced things like that you can understand how jockeys can be made to look like idiots and you tend not to slag them when things go wrong. They will take the **** out of each other but we are not allowed.
I think before you slag off any jockey you should look at who he works for and ask yourself do I know better than eg Alan King, Jonjo PN or Nicky henderson.
I can remember Rory Delargy running a hate campaign a couple of years ago on Timeform Radio on how bad a jockey James Reveley was. I couldn't see where he was coming from as he wasn't exactly riding the cream. Look at the guy now he's riding out of his skin because he's got the right horses to ride..including winning in France on Un Temps Pour Tout for David Pipe...........
I mention that because it makes me think either David/Martin Pipe are complete idiots who can't pick a decent jockey between them or critics need to sit down and think about what they are saying.
BennyB
Senior Jockey
Good post Tanlic. As previously stated I'm no fan of Scudamore but some of the stick he gets is unfair, and as you say Mr Pipe is probably a better judge of a jockey than any of us on here.
I appreciate your points Tanlic, however, remember a couple of things:
1) Paul Nicholls had Joe Tizzard and Sam Thomas as stable jocks and few could bracket them in the top grade?
2) While the Pipes are far greater judges of jockeys than us on a public forum, Im sure that his powerful owners such as David Johnson and Thomas Barr were allowed to exercise their right to replace Scu as they didn't rate him.....remember?
3) The days when Pipe (David) can handpick the best jockeys are gone.....like most of his top class horses. If the Professor disappeared with Moon Racer et all, they would have nothing left.
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BennyB
Senior Jockey
Johnson, like many big owners, had a retainer jockey to ride his horses regardless of who trained them. Bryan Cooper would be on a Mullins trained Gigi runner, but it doesn't mean they think he's a better jock than Ruby.
I'm fairly ambivalent towards this as I really like the guy but don't rate him that highly as a jockey and yet as Grey points out, his tendency to allow a horse to do too much early on seems to have diminished. That said he still makes the odd howler, e.g. Starchitect at Cheltenham.
I wouldn't be put off backing a horse with him on but wouldn't have my confidence increased either.
Regardless of my own mixed sentiments however, to use David Pipe as an affirmation re his ability is possibly misleading. The two practically grew up together and the family have strong ties. That's not to say Pipe would use him if he was useless but you'd imagine he'd be more tolerant than he would any other jockeys.
I know he's largely committed to Pond House but a fairer reflection would be on how many spares he picks up from the other connections.
In 2015/2016 Mullins + Henderson + Nicholls + Hobbs + King = 0. Elliot provided 3, Jonjo 2 and Twister 1.
Tizzard obviously helped out but he's clearly not overly in demand when he isn't riding for the Pipes.
I wouldn't be put off backing a horse with him on but wouldn't have my confidence increased either.
Regardless of my own mixed sentiments however, to use David Pipe as an affirmation re his ability is possibly misleading. The two practically grew up together and the family have strong ties. That's not to say Pipe would use him if he was useless but you'd imagine he'd be more tolerant than he would any other jockeys.
I know he's largely committed to Pond House but a fairer reflection would be on how many spares he picks up from the other connections.
In 2015/2016 Mullins + Henderson + Nicholls + Hobbs + King = 0. Elliot provided 3, Jonjo 2 and Twister 1.
Tizzard obviously helped out but he's clearly not overly in demand when he isn't riding for the Pipes.
Wasnt it after AP left that he wanted a different jockey than the stable jockey?
I can't remember him having hardly any horses with other trainers for quite some time when Timmy was riding them?