Tom Scudamore

EC1

EC1

On a break
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
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late 1960's early 70's
I'm sure now i mention this..he'll have a bucketful of winners.

Its been mentioned here a few times about how he can't judge pace...two classic examples today at Southwell..2nd one in the bumper..just rode both horses into the ground..the bumper ride looked like a 12 year old on board

the interesting bit for me is that whenever a jockey gives a poor ride it seems to cause consternation generally..but not a bad word about both rides from the pundits on will hill radio

bad pace rides do generally get missed..unless its a hold up **** up..but these sorts of rides are worse imo..but 90% of punters don't even notice

4.10 Tinseltown
4.40 susie sheep
 
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Didn't see the races but I agree with the sentiment.

Jockeys can get serious bans for holding them up too long and not getting them into a race but I've long suspected hare-off rides as another form of non-trying rather than just poor judgment.

People with long enough memories will recall the classic Scu Sr rides for Martin Pipe back in the early days of their association. He'd go off at a fast pace and establish a long lead before allowing the horse to relax and fill its lungs in the middle section, then when the others made their move he'd kick on and they'd never get to him. It helped, mind, that Pipe had them as fit as fcuk.
 
he doesn't the give the breather bit like Dad..the thing is if you ride a track too fast..then half an hour later ride it the same..you get same result,,you would think it would be obvious
 
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Couldn't agree more - anybody know if there has ever been a jockey called into stewards for going off too fast ?

Admittedly it would become a logistical nightmare to monitor as potentially every horse that leads in a fast run race would be investigated. Cheltenham festival would be carnage.
 
EC1 said:
he doesn't the give the breather bit like Dad..the thing is if you ride a track too fast..then half an hour later ride it the same..you get same result,,you would think it would be obvious
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Martin Pipe horses had the fitness advantages in those days to allow this to happen EC, everyone else has caught up long ago. Tom is a weak jockey who Ive never seen win a race he should have lost. Suits the stable now who like to keep it "in house"
 
Oh come on guys

I could pick out rides from any jockey and say they were bad simply because things didn't go to plan. 99% of the time I'd be wrong if I though it would make an ounce of difference to the result

If the trainer says don't hang about, gallop them into the ground, he'll stay forever then that's what you do.

Tom Scu has improved a helluva lot over the last few years and is up there with the top jockeys riding...and please don't gimme that it's because he's riding good horses unless you think David Pipe is an idiot and a bad judge of jockeys

100 winners last season from a guy who can't judge pace? You have to be joking.

With 60 winners under his belt so far it looks like, barring accidents he's going to have his best ever season. 10 from 40 in bumpers

As far as Susie Sheep goes that can't possible be put down to a bad ride. She had outstayed everything in her ptp winning by 36 length but they can be very misleading as a woman pushing a pram could beat half of them

Yesterday in a better class of race beaten she was outclassed and beaten 40 odd lengths......had she been run out of it after the last because she had gone too fast that's one thing but passed by 3 horses miles from home I'd say she'll prove to be near on useless.

A quick look at Tinsell Town's form would indicate his run was pretty much par from the course.......

8 different jockeys have ridden him in his last 6 races........almost always ridden from the front he has only won once in a mickey mouse race off 64 on the flat.

On reflection I'd say Tom Scu did really well to finish where he did on the one paced mule of a thing.
 
Tanlic said:
Oh come on guys

I could pick out rides from any jockey and say they were bad simply because things didn't go to plan. 99% of the time I'd be wrong if I though it would make an ounce of difference to the result

If the trainer says don't hang about, gallop them into the ground, he'll stay forever then that's what you do.

Tom Scu has improved a helluva lot over the last few years and is up there with the top jockeys riding...and please don't gimme that it's because he's riding good horses unless you think David Pipe is an idiot and a bad judge of jockeys

100 winners last season from a guy who can't judge pace? You have to be joking.

With 60 winners under his belt so far it looks like, barring accidents he's going to have his best ever season. 10 from 40 in bumpers

As far as Susie Sheep goes that can't possible be put down to a bad ride. She had outstayed everything in her ptp winning by 36 length but they can be very misleading as a woman pushing a pram could beat half of them

Yesterday in a better class of race beaten she was outclassed and beaten 40 odd lengths......had she been run out of it after the last because she had gone too fast that's one thing but passed by 3 horses miles from home I'd say she'll prove to be near on useless.

A quick look at Tinsell Town's form would indicate his run was pretty much par from the course.......

8 different jockeys have ridden him in his last 6 races........almost always ridden from the front he has only won once in a mickey mouse race off 64 on the flat.

On reflection I'd say Tom Scu did really well to finish where he did on the one paced mule of a thing.
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i disagree with nearly all of that.

i'll just clarify my position..generally i don't notice bad rides that much..although recently i've changed tack on that..mainly because of glaringly poor ones i notice. I like PS, his reaction to that sh1t RP attack on him this year told me a lot about him...very nice man. Being a very nice man..has bugger all to do with any judgement i make regarding what i see on a race course. I have no axe to grind against any jockey or stable ..unlike most punters..i try and keep an open mind..unless i see something obviously poor or daft..which i did yesterday.

Your comments about Susie Sheep are wrong..she isn't some lag..she cost 27k and was 11/8 fav..she didn't do anything after the last at all.....because it was flat race.

Interestingly half an hour later there was another bumper race where a horse made all...but won.

I understand that when you have a horse that stays further you want a decent pace to stretch them..but there is a difference between stretching a field and riding a horse too fast so that you stop as though shot 3 out

Lets have a look at the two races..and see who can judge pace on a front runner.

time is from field starting to move to path on far side

Susie Sheep = 123.9 seconds
Just Before Dawn = 133.7 seconds

so Susie Sheep was asked to go 10 seconds faster in the first 9/10 furlongs...thats what?..50 lengths faster ..and still be expected to have something left at the end.

do you think thats being a good judge of pace in this instance?

His other ride compared to the earlier novice hurdle pace setter..timed to the same point as the flat races

3.00 race = 131.9
Tinseltown = 126.3

Again the horse has run 5.5 seconds faster..near 30 lengths faster. It looks like his pace judgement here is about 30 lengths different to other jockeys...and their horses don't seem to stop as though shot 2 or 3 out..odd that.

do you think thats good pace judgement?

Like i said..i'm not picking on him..i just couldn't believe what i was watching from someone who rides for one of the biggest stables in the game.
 
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Agreed EC1...good to see some facts backing up what everyone knows already.

Tanlic, regarding Tinseltown, how have 8 jocks ridden him in last 6 races? Two jocks on top would seriously hinder his chances!
 
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You compare the pace set by Tinseltown to a couple of real bad novices...........sorry but that would be thrown out of court before you got started

The 3 O'Clock race the horse that led initially is so bad he was back peddling at a rate of knots after 1 mile..the other horse that took over was an unconsidered 50/1 shot who was beaten a distance.

As far a Susie goes how can you criticise Tom Scu when you have no idea what he was told to do prior to the race?




With the Pipes it could have been anything from not today to make sure she gets a good blow.

or She's very slow but stays forever make it a good gallop.

Comparing it to steady away and getting an easy lead at a crawl proves nothing

To say Bad Ride is totally wrong unless you are privy to all the information especially with a gambling stable like Pipes.

Be interesting to see how she turns out because up to now all she has done is won a 100 quid ptp somewhere in bumfukidaho ???? what she cost is irrelevant.

Look at it another way...........Magna Carta was never anymore than 4 lengths behind Susie and was right up her backside after a mile so I assume his time is very similar to the path

If Scu was setting such a breakneck pace why weren't the others 50 lengths behind at the path?

Being up there chasing Susie all the way round never stopped Magna Cartor from winning and doing so in a time 6.3 seconds faster than Just Before Dawn.

So if had run the same race and the others in the last did the same he would have never been headed and won by 31.5 lengths.

I'd say it had very little to do with Tom Scu..........Either the Pipes were at it or Susie is near on useless and they've wasted some poor owners money...I go for the latter

Of course it could be she's still as weak as pi$$ and needs another year on her back......if that is the case and I hope it is for the owners sake we won't be seeing her again until next season
 
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You compare the pace set by Tinseltown to a couple of real bad novices...........sorry but that would be thrown out of court before you got started

incorrect..the novice race 3rd is rated 120..thats 15 lb higher than the best horse in Tinseltown's race

The 3 O'Clock race the horse that led initially is so bad he was back peddling at a rate of knots after 1 mile..the other horse that took over was an unconsidered 50/1 shot who was beaten a distance.

the quality of the front runner is irrelevant to the argument..the race was run at a pace that allowed prominent horses to run well at the end

As far a Susie goes how can you criticise Tom Scu when you have no idea what he was told to do prior to the race?

I assume you are saying the instructions were..to run an 11/8 shot very quickly so it stopped as if shot 3 out...strange instructions...would have been better off not running at all if that was the case.

With the Pipes it could have been anything from not today to make sure she gets a good blow.

or She's very slow but stays forever make it a good gallop.

like i said..as thick as i am i do understand that you might want to stretch speedier types...that doesn't mean go that fast you empty the tank before you hit the home straight.

Comparing it to steady away and getting an easy lead at a crawl proves nothing

you can compare it to the hurdle races and flat races up to that distance and still get a good idea of what is too fast...he has gone at least 30 lengths too fast even if you ignore the other flat race

To say Bad Ride is totally wrong unless you are privy to all the information especially with a gambling stable like Pipes.

No...thats wrong isn't it..there are plenty of ways of getting a horse beat without making yourself look like you can't pace a race..i assume you are saying it was a non trier...strange how with a gambling stable they get a non trier at that price..would have thought it might have drifted a bit under those circumstances wouldn't you

Be interesting to see how she turns out because up to now all she has done is won a 100 quid ptp somewhere in bumfukidaho ???? what she cost is irrelevant.

The price of a horse on average is relevant..and to say otherwise is a bit of a nonsense in a game where money tells you nearly everything you need to know. You are doing well to judge a horse on one run though

Look at it another way...........Magna Carta was never anymore than 4 lengths behind Susie and was right up her backside after a mile so I assume his time is very similar to the path

If Scu was setting such a breakneck pace why weren't the others 50 lengths behind at the path?

sometimes jockeys follow whatever the pace..sometimes they don't..in this instance they did

Being up there chasing Susie all the way round never stopped Magna Cartor from winning and doing so in a time 6.3 seconds faster than Just Before Dawn.

So if had run the same race and the others in the last did the same he would have never been headed and won by 31.5 lengths.

Magna Carter probably needs even further than Susie on breeding and has just kept going. The other horses on pace all stopped quickly. Something has got to win..maybe the winner is a lot better than the rest..we will see. Not every over fast first half breaks all horses..you see that on the AW a fair bit where you have a race run way too fast early..but you still get one who can plug on and still finish whilst the others on pace have stopped quickly. Its not that black and white.

I doubt he would have won the other race by that far due to the following nature of horses and riders. Maybe they went a little too slow in other race...so couldn't make time back later...even if that race wasn't evenly run as you suggest and you speed it up by 20 lengths at halfway ...its still well behind Susies race at that point. Even pace is probably somewhere between the times of both races to halfway..leaving Suzie still 25 lengths above even. Thats why i quoted 20 odd lengths and not the 50 as his average judgement of pace here later in my post

I'd say it had very little to do with Tom Scu..........Either the Pipes were at it or Susie is near on useless and they've wasted some poor owners money...I go for the latter

only time will tell..she is one for us to look at in future...if she doesn't win a race i'll conceed you were right...seems strange to be at it though when so much money went on horse..especially when money would have been from people who knew how fit she was.... most horses FTO that aren't fit are usually easy to spot in the betting

Of course it could be she's still as weak as pi$$ and needs another year on her back......if that is the case and I hope it is for the owners sake we won't be seeing her again until next season

now you are covering yourself..i don't buy that as she wouldn't have been 11/8 on debut..its not like ordinary punter made her that price is it with no form at all to go on?

You are going on like you his agent here Tanlic...makes me laugh really...some of the nonsense i read on here about jockeys..which goes unchallenged..and yet i show a couple of clear cut races where something is not quite right...that actually caught my eye without my realising ..they were so poor...and you are prepared to make any excuse up for them.

Like i said..i have no gripe against Scu...he certainly isn't alone in not having a clock in his head...if that is the case here..and possibly if he had only done this once on the day i wouldn't have even mentioned it..but twice in half hour did stand out.

I'll tell you what..i'm happy to put this down to circumstances beyond his control..seeing as how you so unhappy about about my outrageous inaccurate assessment ...lets say he was instructed to ride like he did so had no choice...so its unlikely he is going to be doing this regularly then is it? So i doubt this thread will get any more additional similar rides in the near future.
 
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But the place is so much healthier when opposing views are backed up by sound reasons (on both sides) without the debate descending into dismissive and/or personalised name-calling.
 
I must be missing something, if Scu was that bad he'd be out of work.
Western Warhorse in the Arkle????
If that was a Ruby ride everyone would be waxing lyrical.
 
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tiggers1972 said:
I must be missing something, if Scu was that bad he'd be out of work.
Western Warhorse in the Arkle????
If that was a Ruby ride everyone would be waxing lyrical.
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what bad?

i don't understand

many jockeys haven't got much of a clock in their head..its just that he did it in two races back to back..i'm sure plenty out there are capable of doing the same..if i see it i'll mention it

Jamie Spencer used to get a load of stick...still won big races though..would you trust him with a large wad of your money on him though..in a slow run race?

like i said...some of the absolute crap i read on here about jockeys that goes unchallenged is unreal...but when someone puts up a few facts..its somehow a load of bolli1x..a bit bizarre really.
 
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You have to excuse me as I have got a thing about people who use sectional timing and pace over the jumps to try and prove something.

In this particular case I firmly believe if Tom Scu mount good enough the pace was not strong enough to stop her as quickly as she did.

The thing you have take into consideration and you have no idea unless you are privy to the information ifaa horse is 100% fit or short of a gallop.

Richard Hannon sends out horses who need the run every other day and Pipe is no different if that is what he feels the need for.

As far as you go EC pointing out the horse was favourite..........it's not like it was a hot race and Pipe horses are always shorter than they should be in races like that and the bookies will keep them short all day long to attract money.

False Favs are common place and money making for bookies in races absent of any real form.

Using times is a mugs game 95% of the time. You simple can't judge how soft soft ground is or how good good ground is.

Nor do you know how much difference it makes between racing on turf used and virgin turf.

All on Good to Soft Voy Por Ustedes recorded a faster time winning the QMCC than Master Minded when he beat him by 20 lengths and had Sprinter Sacre been there would have trailed in 20 lengths behind Voy Por Ustedes if we are to believe what times tell us.

I'd like to think Sprinter Sacre could have travelled throughout the race a lot faster and still beat them both with ease

To me to judge pace with a watch is nuts.........you have to look at how well a horse has travelled from A to B whether it be a fast time or a slow time, you also have to know how holding the ground is and how it affects a horses every stride, was there a wind up his backside was it raining tec etc etc............all these things make it near impossible to use the clock but when it works out and you get a winner you convince yourself it works and it becomes like a drug.

The most successful company are Timeform but they should change there name to Eyeform because what makes them so successful is people like David Cleary Jamie Lynch and co who have a great eye for spotting good horses and evaluating form.
Time is a factor they take into consideration mainly on the flat but it's no where near as important as the name would suggest.

That's my take on it and I honestly believe life is way too short to be spending hours on end studying times to end up losing which you will do for sure.

The only time I am interested in is the time of the next race :p
 
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Tanlic said:
You have to excuse me as I have got a thing about people who use sectional timing and pace over the jumps to try and prove something.

In this particular case I firmly believe if Tom Scu mount good enough the pace was not strong enough to stop her as quickly as she did.

The thing you have take into consideration and you have no idea unless you are privy to the information ifaa horse is 100% fit or short of a gallop.

Richard Hannon sends out horses who need the run every other day and Pipe is no different if that is what he feels the need for.

As far as you go EC pointing out the horse was favourite..........it's not like it was a hot race and Pipe horses are always shorter than they should be in races like that and the bookies will keep them short all day long to attract money.

False Favs are common place and money making for bookies in races absent of any real form.

Using times is a mugs game 95% of the time. You simple can't judge how soft soft ground is or how good good ground is.

Nor do you know how much difference it makes between racing on turf used and virgin turf.

All on Good to Soft Voy Por Ustedes recorded a faster time winning the QMCC than Master Minded when he beat him by 20 lengths and had Sprinter Sacre been there would have trailed in 20 lengths behind Voy Por Ustedes if we are to believe what times tell us.

I'd like to think Sprinter Sacre could have travelled throughout the race a lot faster and still beat them both with ease

To me to judge pace with a watch is nuts.........you have to look at how well a horse has travelled from A to B whether it be a fast time or a slow time, you also have to know how holding the ground is and how it affects a horses every stride, was there a wind up his backside was it raining tec etc etc............all these things make it near impossible to use the clock but when it works out and you get a winner you convince yourself it works and it becomes like a drug.

The most successful company are Timeform but they should change there name to Eyeform because what makes them so successful is people like David Cleary Jamie Lynch and co who have a great eye for spotting good horses and evaluating form.
Time is a factor they take into consideration mainly on the flat but it's no where near as important as the name would suggest.

That's my take on it and I honestly believe life is way too short to be spending hours on end studying times to end up losing which you will do for sure.

The only time I am interested in is the time of the next race :p
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thats probably one of the most naive posts i've read on a forum in 14 years tbh Tanlic..but if thats what you believe then there is nowt i can say to change your mind.

the only thing missing is "the only place where times matters is in jail"..you should have slipped that one in for completion

what i'm going to do is not spend time on this...i'm going to let others who rely on times/sectional times reply..if they can be arsed..i know i can't..i'm tired of being the only one that puts effort into things on here..backing up arguments is a waste of time as people are so set in their biases and dogmas that you are wasting your time ultimately

i'll just say...most of the bets i put on here have a large "time" element involved...name me someone who puts more winners up on the forum over a long period of time...and then ask yourself i wonder why that is
 
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Didn't realise you were a wonder tipster so decided to have alook at your posts and the first thing I come across is you trying to rally support by asking another poster to comment on my post.

What's up didums? Aren't you big enough to handle someone elses posts without crying for help and asking others to gang up on people...........Pathetic!!!!!!
 
Tanlic said:
Didn't realise you were a wonder tipster so decided to have alook at your posts and the first thing I come across is you trying to rally support by asking another poster to comment on my post.

What's up didums? Aren't you big enough to handle someone elses posts without crying for help and asking others to gang up on people...........Pathetic!!!!!!
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I didn't say anywhere that i am a wonder tipster..i asked you to name someone who puts up more winners over a long period of time.

I wasn't asking for support from anyone..over the years i've wasted my time with people like you and i find that such as you are so set in your ways that you never change your view..blinkered is the word..and by the looks of the above post i made the right decision...didums???..are you grown up right?...aren't i big enough?...wtf..are you real?...how old are you?

Like i said..i been posting 14 years on forums...wasted too much time on people like you...i don't do it anymore..i'll leave it to others ..i'm bored with attitudes like yours and am quite happy to let you spout such as the crap in your last posting...carry on chap...i'm happy in my world...my methods keep me going and i'll stick to them.

There are supposedly loads here that use speed analysis...let them answer..i've written more detailed replies on this forum over the years than 10 posters put together..those days are done.

So carry on with the sad insults..it will be water off ducks back old lad.

You want to parlez with me you do it in the right way..try and and belittle me and i'll just ignore you.
 
Most naive post you've come across in 14 years........Belittle you......you're doing fine with insults without my help :p

Maybe you could post without anyone disputing it in the past but I'm not like other people and say it as I see it. Sorry about that but it is after all a forum for discussion.

My problem is a lot of my friends back home were National Hunt jockeys I spent a lot of time with and of course heard their side of the story when things went wrong.
You quickly realise any twat can slag a jockey from an armchair but when you are actually out there it's nothing like you can imagine watching the box.

Most punters having never ridden a horse are way too quick to blame jockeys and not the horse.
They of course will argue you don't have to have ridden a racehorse to be able to spot a bad ride........you can bet your backside you have a better idea if you have

Having worked with race for a very long time I can assure you they can be the most ignorant stubborn beasts on the planet and if they decide enough is enough
and decide to stop trying for whatever reason not even Bellerophon could move them

Best you keep that preen gland in order would hate to see you catch a cold :lol:
 
You quickly realise any twat can slag a jockey from an armchair

yes many do that on here..you haven't singled them out though...just the one person who hasn't got a history of knocking jockeys...but the one person you think you can verbally slag off and no one will back up..you try that with a few others on here and you will have 10 people sticking their oar in to tell you you are out of order

i expect you will be calling a lot of people twats over the coming months if slagging jockeys is your pet hate..I will be watching that you are consistent with your insults

We heard all this from AP a while ago..no one is allowed to comment on a jockey's ride..unless you are a jockey yourself..i remember not many agreed with him at the time

oh..and talking about didums..you are the one getting all precious about a couple of crap rides..you the one crying about it getting highlighted...but that's a bit childish of me...then again fits in with your efforts

i've nowt more to add on the thread anyway..so you post what you want on it




 
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