Two questions.

C

Colin Phillips

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I've made the same posting over on TRF so apologies to people who visit both sites.

Is the domination of Ballydoyle of Group 1 racing at the moment detrimental to the health of racing?

Are Godolphin becoming a laughing-stock (probably too strong an expression, but you know what I mean)?

These questions are not meant to upset supportes of both set-ups, again, apologies if they do.
 
When a team surges ahead in any sport it usually means that the rest of them need to lift their game so from the point of view that they are improving the standards, it's a positive. On the negative side their continued success on the race track will ensure their stallion lines/line will continue to be the most popular and the gene pool will continue to shrink as can be seen by the debate going on as to who will cover Peeping fawn without turning her Uncle into her brother and father................:(

Godolphin.....oh dear :eek:
 
This will not be truly understood in a sporting context as it is just as much an industrial issue. Coolmore have a business model built around a unique piece of intellectual capital (Aidan). Godolphin don't.

I think an illustrative analogy would be between say, Yahoo and Google. Googles alogrithms are just better.
 
As a measure of my boredom today, I thought I'd enter the debate.

Is it possible that Godolphin's refusal to send broodmares to Coolmore sires (I think that's right?) is a contributory factor? Maybe the Godolphin stock is simply inferior, because they are not bred from the best sires available?
 
GODOLPHIN are not firing at all! Will it cost Bin Suroor his job? or is there a major problem that we are not aware of.........

One was always assured of a run with their horses, now they have just become another stable to add to the many others.................
 
Is the domination of Ballydoyle of Group 1 racing at the moment detrimental to the health of racing?
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It is the performance of Godolphin, not Coolmore, that is to the detriment of racing. Not only have Godolphin bred horses disappointed but they have tried to compensate for this by buying in almost every other decent (non-Cooolmore) horse around, only to turn them into failures too. This is detrimental to European racing because the stock of quality horses available to other operations is being depleted and Coolmore stock are not being fully tested on the track.

Are Godolphin becoming a laughing-stock (probably too strong an expression, but you know what I mean)?
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They have had some bad luck but given their resources the results are embarassing.
 
I'm reminded of when Arsenal went unbeaten through a whole season a few years back. It had lots to do with Arsenal being excellent, but also that the opposition just wasn't there.

Same thing here. In Ireland, only Jim Bolger has a couple of horses good enough to compete. In Britain, there's almost nothing good enough. Look Here is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

France is the only place in Europe where there's a population of top class horses that have the quality. Zarkava, Montmartre, Marchand D'Or etc. It's no coincidence that O'Brien has only won the Ganay over there early doors.

It would only be detrimental to the health of racing if it continued year in year out. Let's remember that O'Brien set a world record for Group 1s in 2001. In 2002, he had the first two home in the Derby and the Guineas and set a world record with the Rock.

Yet just two years later, he won just three Group 1s and people were speculating that he was about to be replaced by Wachman. So let's not go equally overboard this time and start claiming that everyone else is just playing for scraps for the next decade. Arsenal have only won a single FA Cup since that unbeaten season...
 
an capall said:
This will not be truly understood in a sporting context as it is just as much an industrial issue. Coolmore have a business model built around a unique piece of intellectual capital (Aidan). Godolphin don't.

I think an illustrative analogy would be between say, Yahoo and Google. Googles alogrithms are just better.
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I'm flabbergasted that people think Aidan O'Brien (fantastic trainer that he is) is the 'intellectual capital' behind the success of Ballydoyle. That man would be John Magnier, whose talent for identifying a potential stallion and incredible breeding knowledge is the main factor behind the long term success of Ballydoyle.

If anyone is in doubt, I'd suggest they read 'Horsetrader' - the best racing book I've ever had the pleasure to read.
 
I think Godolphin will bounce back next season, they have numerous nice juveniles and are being more patient.

Within 5 years there will be a new head at the healm but it aint rocket science to work out who.
 
I chose my terms carefully, Andrew. To labour the business analogy - resources are needed (Magnier) and products are needed (O'Brien).

Aidan is not the be all and end all for Coolmore, I agree, but the Sheikh has lots more money, (a whole sovereign fund) than Magnier, and fails.

Why? Firstly, as alluded to above - his breeding and buying strategy is flawed. Secondly he has SBS and Magnier has APOB.
 
an capall said:
I chose my terms carefully, Andrew. To labour the business analogy - resources are needed (Magnier) and products are needed (O'Brien).

Aidan is not the be all and end all for Coolmore, I agree, but the Sheikh has lots more money, (a whole sovereign fund) than Magnier, and fails.

Why? Firstly, as alluded to above - his breeding and buying strategy is flawed. Secondly he has SBS and Magnier has APOB.
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Fair enough - just trying to make the point (often forgotten) that Magnier is (imo) the underlying reason for the success of Coolmore.
 
Bin Suroor is not the only - and possibly not the main - problem at Godolphin. He was doing fine for them a few years ago - definitely challenging if not beating Ballydoyle; so it's not that he *can't* train. Maybe he's no longer being *allowed* to train? It's the same old question - who is making the decisions?

What is Crisford's role precisely, how much power does he have over Bin Suroor, and how far does the Sheikh himself make the crucial decisions? Does moving the horses around between such vastly different climates crock them? It's very hard to get a handle on what's wrong there and who's decisions are responsible, but given how well Godolphin were doing less than 10 years ago, I'd be reluctant to lay all the blame on the trainer. I do agree though that both Magnier and AOB are close to genius in their respective realms.

I wonder too if the Irish empathy with the horse in the yard is producing results at Ballydoyle which the Godolphin set-up in Newmarket with their deracinated staff can't hope to match long-term? Do Ballydoyle manage to create or rather simulate a 'small yard' atmosphere and ethos, and might this - with their great horse/staff ratio - contribute to their success? There are so many unknowns and imponderables...

I agree though that the Ballydoyle dominance is currently bad for racing in that it gets very boring, clapping in the same team {of multi-millionaires} after every G1 race - same problem we've started having with Nicholls' yard in NH! It was so refreshing when Pam Sly and Geoff Huffer won the Guineas - it's much better for the sport for all kinds of reasons to see the main spoils spread around a bit. Imo more people will be encouraged to give up than to raise their game by the current situation!
 
Headstrong said:
Do Ballydoyle manage to create or rather simulate a 'small yard' atmosphere and ethos, and might this - with their great horse/staff ratio - contribute to their success? There are so many unknowns and imponderables...
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They have the main yard, which holds around 20-30 of the top three year old and older colts. The rest (including the two year olds) are all divided up into smaller "yards" around the place. Its a hard place to describe given the size of the place, but there are around 180 horses in training there so it gives you an idea of just how big the place is!

As for it good seeing Sly and co have a big winner, of course it is and I would not begrudge them it. But I want the classic winners to be champions right through to the end of the season and rightly or wrongly when I saw Speciosa landing the Guineas, Cockney Rebel his Guineas, Tout Seul the Dewhurst etc I just had serious reservation as to the likelihood of them being genuine Champions at the end of the season.

If Nadal or Federer win you know its because they are superstars and will be around at the end of the year and next year. If a Ferrer or Blake wins, ok your happy to see them win it, but you don't come away thinking they could be a great of the game. Its a bit like that regarding O'Brien & Stoute vs Sly & Huffer.
 
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I think this season is being really extrange.

I dont like a stable being so dominant , especially with them being so comercial, because many horses dont clash with each other.


Stoute , Oxx, Ch Hyam , Noseda etc are not having a great season


About Godolphin
many things must be happening there, because they had the 2 best jockeys, good work riders, best vets, no end of money to enter horses and for comodities.

I dont think is his buying policy, because when they are paying millions for a yearling Coolmore is being the underbidder, what shows they also liked the horse.



The problem could be that Sheik Mohammed must be training the horses by phone and it looks he is governning the stable like Zapatero is ruling Spain at the moment.
The Dubai trip is also proving a dissapointment.



About the breeding affair, they have been buying some very good horses and with now desserting the idea of winning the Kentucky Derby and concentring in grass horses, maybe things can improve.


What I would do would be to split all the horses with Fabre, Stoute, Oxx, Noseda, M. Johnston and some others.
 
I take your point but let's not forget Cockney Rebel won *two* Guineas in above average times - and would prob still have been winning at the end of the season but for his injury. Granted though that Speciosa was only a soft-ground horse. Depends what you want from your racing - I love to see small yards win big pots, I get no real pleasure watching huge rich yards reel in every big prize.

This season is making me lose the will to live - I have nothing at all against Ballydoyle and admire them hugely, but their dominance is very boring to me, and not what I want from the sport. Iv'e been a few of the big meetings too lately, and it's noticeable the crowd feel the same... the disappointment when Cecil's horse was beaten in the Eclipse was palpable. I agree it's great to have a 'champion' horse - but what we have here is more a 'champion' trainer, making a few good horses run like champions!

From what you say it sounds as if Ballydoyle does to some extent simulate a series of smaller yards, to the horses' gain. I'm sure horses don't thrive as well when they feel they are just a number. Most of all though AOB seems to have the priceless ability to 'get inside a horse's head'
 
Headstrong said:
I take your point but let's not forget Cockney Rebel won *two* Guineas in above average times - and would prob still have been winning at the end of the season but for his injury. Granted though that Speciosa was only a soft-ground horse. Depends what you want from your racing - I love to see small yards win big pots, I get no real pleasure watching huge rich yards reel in every big prize.

This season is making me lose the will to live - I have nothing at all against Ballydoyle and admire them hugely, but their dominance is very boring to me, and not what I want from the sport. Iv'e been a few of the big meetings too lately, and it's noticeable the crowd feel the same... the disappointment when Cecil's horse was beaten in the Eclipse was palpable. I agree it's great to have a 'champion' horse - but what we have here is more a 'champion' trainer, making a few good horses run like champions!

From what you say it sounds as if Ballydoyle does to some extent simulate a series of smaller yards, to the horses' gain. I'm sure horses don't thrive as well when they feel they are just a number. Most of all though AOB seems to have the priceless ability to 'get inside a horse's head'
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I would imagine most of the British racing public would have moaned for any trainer to deny Cecil another Group 1, not simply because it was O'Brien. I wonder did they feel the same when he denyed Bolger a Group 1 on Saturday?:)
 
I think that Coolmore, in the long term, have consistently outperformed. Godolphin go through phases. So does the Aga Khan etc but there cannot be another team that has consistently produced the goods. Obviously O'Brien and his team are good at their side of the job, but they cannot do anything without the raw materials. The homebreds are very good and they are more capable at buying yearlings than Godolphin. I think a change of team is required for Godolphin, starting with their buyer.

So is it a bad thing was the original question. I don't think so. Having Sheikh Mo chasing coolmore is surely a good thing. He will keep his enthusiasm until he can beat them consistently. Coolmore will continue to do what they do best and Irish racing is more competitive now than when Vincent O'Brien was mopping up everything. I used to go to Leopardtown and Phoenix Park when Vincent had three long odds on shots. That doesn't really happen with Aidan as the other trainers have more strings to their bow now.
 
Were it not for Ballydoyle keeping the horses in training as 4 year olds, this season would be pretty average....relatively speaking. Henrythenavigator aside, the rest of their three year olds are nothing exceptional.

It is a cycle, Coolmore will need a good bunch of two year olds this year to strengthen the three year old ranks next year as with the likes of Henry, Duke Of Marmalade, Haradasun, Mount Nelson, Soldier Of Fortune etc all going to be retired their older horses will be nowhere near as strong next season.
 
Godolphin's problem is the fascination with Dubai, I have long thought this. Alot of their horses are bred into soft ground families yet made to run on lightning quick ground, its sickening.

Ibn Khaldun needs soft ground yet was made to work in the Spring in Dubai on a fast surface, it's hardly rocket science his knee's gave way.

For some reason all the older horses go out to Dubai but alot should really stay behind, the 2yo staff in Newmarket are the better staff and Godolphin juveniles are their best yet this season (they haven't run anything decent yet). The difference is O'Brien's horses seem to be of a high class, they never run the bad ones or they run once and disappear. Yet Godolphin will continue to run average yaks up and down the country. Maybe this is why they stand out as being unsuccessful.

Also the patience shown this season in Newmarket has helped produce some nice older horses who many of you would think are retired or crippled but are in fact being patiently waited with. There are some nice ones and I'm sure they have a very smart prospect in Imperial Star. He would be my pick for the 2nd half of the season, well above Hala Bek. I know people will look at him as a grp 3 horse tops but he has really imrpessed me since an operation and I just think he could turn a few heads.

There are some nice horses to come, but no the calibre at Coolmoore is just out of the ordinary, but I wonder how many of there horses in training we have actually seen as the ordinary ones disappear without trace.
 
I think a change of team is required for Godolphin, starting with their buyer.
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What's the point, if you're then going to tie their hands over buying Coolmore progeny (and then do a volte-face and buy them as made 2yos anyway).
 
I dont like a stable being so dominant , especially with them being so comercial, because many horses dont clash with each other.
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Jaysus! Last week we were complaining that he enters too many in the same races.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
What's the point, if you're then going to tie their hands over buying Coolmore progeny (and then do a volte-face and buy them as made 2yos anyway).
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There are plenety of non Coolmore progeny out there that do well, it's just Godolphins buyer is can't find them and he is way behind the other side in this respect. A trainer can only do with horses what he can, it is the front end (i.e. the buyers) that make the real difference. JP has a similar problem.
 
And I think Chris B is probably right about the Dubai effect. There is a reason Ballydoyle never sent their horses there (before the tiff)
 
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