Ukraine

Wondered how long it would be for a thread to start

Some dubious provocation on both sides

Might be "complex" in some ways but i would dispute "very". Putin has to get out. That's the first step
 
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From our point of view, I'd like to see 'Big Willie' Hague get out of there unless he's planning to be part of a human shield.
Everyone take a deep breath and await the result of the referendum in the Crimea over its relationship with Ukraine and Russia.
 
In fairness. A democratically elected Govt was overthrown without an election.

Are we sure know the 'Goodies' in this one?
 
an capall said:
In fairness. A democratically elected Govt was overthrown without an election.

Are we sure know the 'Goodies' in this one?
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Not precisely but it would see that the country is largely divided on nationality grounds rather than practical and the risk is that the new government will be sectarian. That will always be the danger as it is in any country where people put their supposed nationality/religion/clas first without giving any thought whatsoever

On the other hand, closer links with the eu instead of the sinister trading block of Russia with its over dependence on commodities, under developed economy and dubious human rights,mwould appear to be a no brainer. But still

Venezuela is next.
 
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I think the fact that Russia is now virtually a totally corrupt state (rather than an ideological communist one as in the Cold War days) will mitigate against things getting too out of hand. Putin and the oligarchs have too much to lose. A scary situation, though.
 
There's never been a good vs bad argument with regard to the Russians and Americans. The latter did as much damage to South America as the former did to the former Eastern Bloc back in the day.
 
an capall said:
In fairness. A democratically elected Govt was overthrown without an election.

Are we sure know the 'Goodies' in this one?
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Exactly. I find it bizarre the US and Britain are lecturing Russia on illegal invasions. Why didn't anyone threaten them with expulsion from the G8?
 
Britain and USA are not annexing states. There's a big difference . Ukraine does not have a saddam killing thousands of his own people or threatening regional security and does not have a government declaring war on the us and gb as well as sponsoring and training attacks on non Muslim civilians world wide

America was disgraceful in certain Latin countries but ultimately did nit suppress and frankly kill all freedoms in the manner of the ussr. That's obvious. There was no fall of Berlin Wall in Latin America and didn't need to be
 
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walsworth said:
Desperate Dan said:
I think the fact that Russia is now virtually a totally corrupt state /QUOTE]
Rather like the UK in that respect.
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Look at transparency internationals corruption league of countries. Totally independent . Uk is one of the least corrupt (14th) Russia is just about rated the worst of all European countries (127th worldwide)

In the business world Russia is seen as horrendous to do business with and a virtual no go. Insurers wont touch the place
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You would think that those that still screaming about britain inhabiting a empty rock 200 years ago (not least on this forum) would have something to say about this annexation wouldnt you?

As if...
 
Crimea is an important place to Russians. They have naval ports there and the majority of its inhabitants, about 60% are of Russian origin.

The place only became part of Ukraine in the 1950s as part of some gesture of solidarity and friendship between the soviet republics of Russia and Ukraine. The people living there never asked for it to happen. As long as both places were part of the USSR it didn't make much difference, but it has started to matter a lot now that Ukraine might move outside the Russian sphere of influence.

This new government in Kiev announced immediately they seized power that in a country where 40% of the population are Russian speakers Ukrainian would be the only official language. What were they thinking? That when they poked Russia in the eye the west would save them? Hadn't they seen what happened in Georgia?

Will Russia move into the rest of Ukraine? Kiev was the cradle of the Russian orthodox tradition, they wouldn't like to see it drift off to the west. But if Putin has serious plans to invade the rest of Ukraine, I wonder why he would not have done it already, before the west had time to decide how to respond?
 
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The Ukrainians were stupid with some of the pronouncements about language and so on but that does not justify a Russian i annexation .

It's an "illegal invasion"
 
clivex said:
The Ukrainians were stupid with some of the pronouncements about language and so on but that does not justify a Russian i annexation .

It's an "illegal invasion"
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No doubt we will have protest marches up and down the country against Russia, like we do against the USA at every opportunity??

:whistle:
 
Yes, it's an "illegal invasion", as you put it. But of what exactly? A place that is populated mainly by people who call themselves Russians and which was ceded to Ukraine in the 1950s by the then prime minister of the USSR who happened to be Ukrainian himself.

And anyway it is difficult to talk of law in a situation where the Kiev government is unelected.
 
Grey said:
Yes, it's an "illegal invasion", as you put it. But of what exactly? A place that is populated mainly by people who call themselves Russians and which was ceded to Ukraine in the 1950s by the then prime minister of the USSR who happened to be Ukrainian himself.

And anyway it is difficult to talk of law in a situation where the Kiev government is unelected.
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Not was saddam Hussein elected

I thought international law was pretty clear on annexing states ? Regardless of elections? I don't see how that is difficult

Ultimately Crimea should perhaps be part of Russia but either by agreement or leaseback. Not by invasion. This has a whiff of hitler and Sudetenland. Although the Russian economy is so fragile and so appallingly run that they have little scope for playing too many games. Especially going forward as the rest of the world can and will gratefully turn its back on its commodities.
 
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harry said:
No doubt we will have protest marches up and down the country against Russia, like we do against the USA at every opportunity??

:whistle:
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We already had protests in Bayswater road last Sunday. And they were joined by a faction from Venezuela also . Buggered up my Sunday outing to the steakhouse
 
clivex said:
Not was saddam Hussein elected

I thought international law was pretty clear on annexing states ? Regardless of elections? I don't see how that is difficult

Ultimately Crimea should perhaps be part of Russia but either by agreement or leaseback. Not by invasion. This has a whiff of hitler and Sudetenland. Although the Russian economy is so fragile and so appallingly run that they have little scope for playing too many games. Especially going forward as the rest of the world can and will gratefully turn its back on its commodities.
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I don't get your reference to Saddam Hussein, unless it is to say nobody had the right to invade Iraq. But I don't think that's your position?

I'm not saying I support what Russia has done or how it did it. But it's difficult to take the moral high ground when the Kiev government clearly has a fascist element in it. The language decree and the way they burst into that tv station yesterday would not reassure anyone about the intentions of some in Kiev towards the Russian population inside their borders. Russia has a legitimate concern about the fate of its people inside Ukraine and it would also have been worried about future access to its naval bases.

The priority now should be to ensure Russia doesn't decide to annexe other parts of the Ukraine.
 
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