Unedifying sight ?

Songsheet said:
As Simnon says, RED MARAUDER's National was run in heavy ground but it was, if my memory serves me right, heavy wet ground - not heavy tacky ground as looked to be the case on Saturday. And RM didn't literally climb over the last two fences, although he was extremely tired.

Quite surprised at your comment, Flame, to be honest, bearing in mind you're actively promoting a racing partnership. However, if it's based on gambling, I suppose there's no difference in outlook between gambling with money on horses or 'just' horses, is there ?
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Excuse me songs but who are you to judge ??

If a course says it's raceable it's raceable, if it wasn't raceable they shouldn't race, simple as that.

Gamble with my horses, and you make out I don't care about them, hmmm that's why I've never had one put down, and given away about 10 horses now for free to good homes, and have rehomed several for trainers in Lambourn and myself as rather see them go to good homes. Won't send a bad one to the sales either, what's the point of getting £500, I don't need the money for one and the horse doesn't deserve that.

But it's not gambling with their lives, you have an idea if you will handle the ground and if you can't manage the conditions you have a jockey who can pull your horse up. However the course decide whether the course is raceable and no I don't see anything wrong with those races being run on Saturday. Okay a lot of horses weren't up to it, but that's not the courses fault and maybe more riders should have pulled up early. But to make an assumption which gives the impression I don't care about my horses is completely stupid. I paid for a colic operation of 7k on a 45 rated handicapper who wasn't worth 500 quid, quite simply because it had a chance of survival, and also had a filly who broke her leg and I paid 4k to have that fixed and again paid 2.5k on a pastern a year later rather than have her put down when she could be fixed. She never even raced and is now at a riding school.

The problem with this industry is there are too many bad horses being bred and until they make it that no horse who isn't a group 1 winner can be a stallion and unless a mare has won a race and rated above 70 can breed, then we will continuously have races full of poorly bred horses, whose dams struggled to win a 0-60 but because they are a half sister to a listed winner or it's mum won a decent race we have to watch the same rubbish being bred every year. Bad breeding = bad horses, its the breeding that needs to be sorted out.

But Saturday's race whilst draining for most of the horses was still a race which was raceable and the over reaction towards it has been stupid in my opinion.
 
Grey said:
In Ireland heavy ground occurs a lot more frequently, which might explain why we have only one or two events, and minor ones at that, over extreme distances.

Perhaps clerks of the course need to apply a different standard concerning marathon events when deciding whether conditions are raceable or not.
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Grey's point is a sensible one but generally I have to go against the majority. The grand national is as bad, if not worse, than what I saw on Saturday. To the outside world the sight of horses crashing to the deck, breaking legs etc (not to mention what the Jocksy go through) over the towering national fences is far worse than seeing a few horses slog through the mud knackered.

I think its pointless to slag anyone off involved because how were they to know? Jocks should have gone slower? Course shouldn't have let it go ahead? Trainers could have pulled their horses?

If it is an issue the authorities should deal with it and suggestions like Grey's would be a sensible way of approaching it.
 
SteveM: has the Grand Nasty ever taken place on fast ground? I can't recall if it has, but I know you'll know! I wouldn't say it would be a problem at the pace the average GN goes, which is a good, steady hand-gallop. There's no sense of anyone being able to sprint to the finish, anyway, after that lot! I'd be more concerned that the landing over jumps like The Chair and Becher's would cause impact stress fractures, leading to lameness, than perhaps outright snaps, crackles, and pops.

I've hated "summer jumping" because much has taken place on deadly Good ground with a lot more scope for broken legs or shoulders on impact, although every type of going brings its fatalities. As we know by now, rotationals (onto the head or poll and arse over tit) are usually fatal, as the neck is snapped. They'll kill your horse on any sort of going and are caused most times by horses getting in too tight to the take-off line, tipping the top of the jump, and losing the ability to get their front legs out in time to take the landing. 1,500lbs of horseflesh plus jockey's weight following onto the point of impact (the head) and that's pretty much it.

I'd agree with Grey's point about marathon events on Heavy - as I said earlier, there is a somewhat different type of Heavy depending where you are, due to soil consistency differences. Thus one course might argue that it (A) was nowhere near as Heavy as course (B) and thus shouldn't lose its race. Hey-ho! As ever, there's always a lot of discussion and debate, but not so often concurrence on action.
 
Colin Phillips said:
From memory (so probably WRONG!!!), I think it was pretty quick when MR.FRISK won in 1990.
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Very much so, record time, I think.

Seem to remember summer jumping at D&E and Newton Abbot being described as hard, and Timeform describing the likes of Mighty Marine (probably my favourite horse ever) as 'liking to hear their hooves rattle'
 
And - without rushing to the bookcase and pulling out my book on the Grand Nat, Colin - were there unusual casualties in that race? I'm agin fast going for jumping because jockeys crank up the gears and go tanking at the fences like their bums are on fire, but in the GN that can't happen (even in record time) as the horses really do need to be set up for the jumps properly, especially wonky ones like Canal Turn, and also because they're bigger and the race is an extreme length. Anyone tanking the GN would last about six fences and then conk out. True, there are some horses who like firmer going, but in ye olde days - say even back in the 1970s-80s - jockeys were still very much garnered from the farming/hunting/military ranks and rode longer and slower at the obstacles - today's much more professional pilot isn't likely to be out on the hay baler the next day (unless he's Joe Tizzard, in which case he'll be in it) or off to fight a foreign foe in a week's time. There is more speed now, for sure, and with it come harder tumbles - more speed, harder impact, more damage. Simples!
 
Hard ground is not permitted in jump racing. I don't know how long this has been the case, but I think for a very long time, so I'd be surprised if any summer jumps has been on hard.

(edit: a website says Hungry Hur as well)

Roll a joint was killed in the 1990 grand national, and I think one or even two others but I'm miles away from any reference books.
 
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Cybrandian said:
Hard ground is not permitted in jump racing. I don't know how long this has been the case, but I think for a very long time, so I'd be surprised if any summer jumps has been on hard.

(edit: a website says Hungry Hur as well)

Roll a joint was killed in the 1990 grand national, and I think one or even two others but I'm miles away from any reference books.
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Definitely was in vogue early 70s, when it finished I'm not sure, but at a guess mid to late 70s. I remember ground specialists like Power Point and the aforementioned Mighty Marine at the southern tracks.

No watering back then!
 
The Grand Nationals of today as against ten years ago are what pitch and putt is to golf! So many modifications to the course now that it's just a straight forward enough handicap chase now - please don't say we want to further dumb it down!! We have way too much bland racing as it is. The exagerated drops at the backs of the fences were in place to test a horses balance and athleticism not to mention that of the jockeys. If we keep going down this road - oohhh poor horses 4 1/2 miles is too far ... Oohh the ground is too soft..... Oohh the ditches are too wide ..... Oohh the fences are too high.... Oohh the grass is too long .... Oohh the jockeys colours are clashing.... Oohhh ooohhh oooooohhhh......

Racehorses are around to race ... We love them very dearly ... We are all big boys and girls here ... We know what the consequences might be .. If we can't deal with those we shouldn't call ourselves racing enthusiats
 
On The Bridle said:
The Grand Nationals of today as against ten years ago are what pitch and putt is to golf! So many modifications to the course now that it's just a straight forward enough handicap chase now - please don't say we want to further dumb it down!! We have way too much bland racing as it is. The exagerated drops at the backs of the fences were in place to test a horses balance and athleticism not to mention that of the jockeys. If we keep going down this road - oohhh poor horses 4 1/2 miles is too far ... Oohh the ground is too soft..... Oohh the ditches are too wide ..... Oohh the fences are too high.... Oohh the grass is too long .... Oohh the jockeys colours are clashing.... Oohhh ooohhh oooooohhhh......

Racehorses are around to race ... We love them very dearly ... We are all big boys and girls here ... We know what the consequences might be .. If we can't deal with those we shouldn't call ourselves racing enthusiats
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Amen to that
 
Er, what is the point you're making, OTB? I don't see anyone asking for a dumbing-down of anything. I would prefer we had a wide variety of obstacles as they do in France, where steeplechasing still requires a much more engaged animal - we've dumbed chasing down all right, to two boring bloody fences, which are enough to send anyone round the bend. The Grand National (unlike all those fake 'nationals' which are just long-winded handicaps) at least still presents three interesting jumps - The Chair, Becher's and the Canal Turn. Pity there isn't still a wall, a water, a bullrush and rail-and-ditch to interest the horses a bit more, but that's how we've dumbed National Hunt down. I'd say today's chases are British pitch-and-putt to French golf. And to think how many ignoramuses, who call themselves racing fans, say the Cheltenham cross-country isn't a 'real' race. It's the only thing which slightly resembles STEEPLECHASING as against "jumps racing". How we've forgotten the glorious history of the sport.
 
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My gut feeling is that NH racing will, at some point, go back to it's roots....more people will go point to pointing etc. instead of pop concerts etc it will be a good day out in the country with a picnic.
 
True that the original "steeplechasing" was supposed to be racing from the sight of one country church steeple to another, with a number of natural and agricultural obstacles in the way - hence, over the 5-bar gate, the four-foot dry-stone wall, several thick hawthorn hedges, a drainage ditch with rails, and so on. Can you imagine trying to stage that now and call it "National Hunt"? Yet the French chasers are zipping round very similar obstacles at Auteuil and enjoying it very much. The French don't sneer and decry the spectacle as "not ze real chazing" as the Cheltenham X-country race is vilified. It's the only bloody race on the whole British NH calendar that remotely resembles the origin of "jumps racing" (what a daft phrase).

Regrettably, point-to-points (again, derived from literally racing from one point to another point en route to the finish of often very long races, up to 10 or more miles - the "points" being where riders could refresh themselves or go for a pee in the bushes) have gone the boring brush fence route, too. Save for the fact they're run at a slower pace than rules races, and round tighter tracks, they also no way reflect the glorious heritage of chasing.

Shadow Leader will despair of me ever shutting up about my favourite NH topic if she reads this, but really - if we ever wanted to make racing more exciting and involving for the general public, then going back to what we once did very well and which the French continue to do magnificently (to the point that the top NH stables nick 40% or more of their yard from French-breds and/or trained animals) could well be the answer.

A lot of people react to NH with "I don't like watching it - the horses get killed/it's cruel". Who could argue with horses getting killed? We knock 'em off every week, sometimes one a day in the summertime. However, check out how many French horses actually fall, versus ours, and how many fall fatally, versus ours. Few, and fewer. Because the races require the horses to be set up well for the different obstacles, which include some superb upsy-downsy little hills (no doubt you've admired the skill in tackling Le Grande Fromage - the Big Cheese - at Auteuil) as well as the Bullfinch, which must be jumped through, there is far more skill required by the horses in figuring out their attack, more alertness and far more interest in tackling them. I am convinced that many of our horses fall due to a certain amount of boredom and/or complacency.

Hurdle racing will remain fairly bog standard, although I prefer the stuffed hurdles to the sheep-hurdle style we still use (and Ireland seems to favour), and given that hurdlers are the sprinters of the NH world, they should be plain and simple to invite speed.

Chasing does not need to invite speed but, by God, it could do with inviting some visual interest and a helluva lot more engagement of the horses, year after boring year! :(

But that's just me, and many won't want to change a thing, reactionary old farts that they are. :lol:
 
Well Kri, I think we've done the 'do French horses actually jump better than UK ones?' to death now so shan't bring it up again.

I am slightly curious though where the statement that PTP tracks are tighter than rules tracks comes from?! Not the case at all for many tracks. They don't all resemble Charing!!!
 
Yes, I know Peper Harrow is tight, but the statement implied that ALL PTP tracks are tighter then rules tracks which is simply not the case.

You've never been to Haydock?
 
I have often wondered why everyone is buying so many French bred horses these days. However, a few years ago I read an article in a Sunday paper [may not even have been racing related] which pointed out that, in France, they only breed from sound mares. At the time I was in a horsey/pony land knowing very little about them [still don't] but curious as to why, whenever anyone I knew had a mare with some sort of a problem they would just breed from her, which struck me, in my equine ignorance as being a bit daft. I was also thinking today as I spent several hours walking round with a pushchair [you tend to do a lot of thinking at such times] of horses having heart attacks, and realised that, before we bought a Welsh Cob for my daughter we had been interested in several ponies, and they all died of heart attacks at a relatively young age. They weren't exactly overworked. And that Shire horses were prone to heart problems because of their size, but French work horses [Percherons etc?] didn't have the same problems. Maybe the French are a lot more sensible when it comes to horse type matters? Apologies for rambling on, but it's my second week of sleep deprivation, and I'm not thinking properly albeit thinking too much.
 
Well, Shadz, it was actually Rachel Green today on ATR, after a nice win, saying how she'd won about 150 PtPs, but that racing under (NH) rules was so different as the pace was much stronger, you had to think much quicker, and that PtP tracks were "much tighter".

But no, I've never said that French horses jump better than Brit-bred (or Irish-bred) ones, only that they seem to love their varied obstacles in France, which clearly engage them more than just bland, same-o, same-o uprights and the odd not very open ditch. No wonder the odd water comes as some surprise!

To spin the idea out, why would one put showjumpers at nothing but a series of gates and triple bars, every competition, every year? Look at the way even all the standard oldies in showjumping get dressed a bit differently, and how the courses change dramatically depending on who's out to impress building them.

Then eventing - by golly, there's an event which has changed radically since the days of the wonderful Sheila Willcox back in the 1950s! There's no comparison to what were generally still somewhat hunting-meets-showjumping obstacles to what horse and rider navigate today. Fantastic innovations like bee-hives, Toyota pick-ups, fully enclosed jumps (like straw hoops), you name it. Nobody asks these fast-moving animals to keep going over a wall and a hedge, a wall and a hedge, over and over and overzzzzzzz...

So, why is British chasing so feckin' boring? If everything else can show pizzazz, imagination, and serious levels of difficulty surmounted without regular equine fatalities, why can't NH? Only because of the fossil-brains running it, I suspect.

Moehat - did you have the ponies autopsied? You say they weren't overworked but that could have been a contributing factor, as well-fed but underworked animals lose muscle tone, including heart muscle tone. If they were asked to only do occasional, but somewhat strenuous work, then not worked for some time, their hearts weren't getting a regular work-out. In a wild state (Dartmoor/Exmoor), they'd be constantly walking steadily for miles as they grazed from dawn to dusk. In a domesticated state, even if roaming in a field, that's not going to provide the same mobility as many hours of daily steady movement.

If they didn't receive enough nourishment (say, suckled from under-nourished mothers), then it's possible they laid down some cardiac weakness quite early. Also, parasitical worms can do great damage to organs at any age, if unchecked - and an autopsy might've shown these up if they were the cause.
 
This was years ago, and it only crossed my mind as I was walking past the field where one of them was kept for a while; they were all just childrens ponies mostly used for hacking and , yes, probably underworked. There was another rescue pony on our field that was found to have some sort of congenital heart condition which meant he could have died at any moment. Given that, during those years, I witnessed or knew of horses and ponies that died of colic [the worst scenario imo] injuries in the field,cast in stables, a foal that was killed by another mare [the saddest] on the day that she was being introduced to the other horses [which probably shouldn't have been done, but didn't take away the tragedy of it] etc. I've always consoled myself whilst watching racing that a horses life is a somewhat precarious one at the best of times. I would like to know more, though, about how the French go about things. We used to have French students here that were as daft about animals as we were, other than one who, at the mentions of horses used to say yum yum.
 
It really is a massive generalisation to state that PTP tracks are 'tighter than NH tracks', whether it's Rachael Green saying it or anyone else!
 
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