Waley-Cohen suspended again

Bar the Bull said:
I admire the way Waley-Cohen puts his son up on Long Run. I would do the same myself. And he clearly has a good understanding with the horse.

But to suggest that this doesn't compromise LR's chances in races is like suggesting that jockeyship isn't a skill that takes years to hone.
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...this is it in a nutshell. It's a shame they don't give Long Run the chance of a pro when the need arises.
 
Oh, right: Feltham Novices' Chase, 2009: WON.

Kingmaker Novices' Chase, 2010: WON

RSA Chase 2010: 3rd

Paddy Power Gold Cup 2010: 3rd

King Geo VI Chase 2011: WON

Cheltenham Gold Cup 2011: WON

Yes, I can see why Robert Waley-Cohen puts his son up, all right! What sort of 'chance' would a pro do better than these efforts, do you imagine? Is there a position better than winning the Cheltenham Gold Cup that I've missed somewhere?

Sam and LONG RUN saw off four previous GC winners in that particular event, the horse proving himself - under his non-pro rider - to be the best staying steeplechaser in training. This non-pro began his riding career in showjumping, eventing, and then point-to-points. He has hardly just leapt into the saddle to grab a few flash rides. His ability to present a horse properly at a jump has been honed by those three other jumps-specialised sports - it's not something he just picked up doing a bit of work riding. Thus he has honed competitive riding skills for several years.

The horse and Sam have developed a rapport over three years both on the gallops and with any number of casual stable visits that a pro jockey, just showing up for a ride here and there, would never do.

I think it's illogical to think of anyone else riding the horse, because I don't see who could have not just given the horse a 'chance', but have done any better. Reality check, gentlemen, please!
 
It really gets your eye in for a take-off stride, EC1, and helps you to deal with putting your horse right by checking it or letting it run on as appropriate, when coming into a jump. Just sitting there praying's all right if you're on a schoolmaster type, or a really bright horse, but for the majority, especially novices, they need to feel confidence. He was a lovely rider, so well balanced and tidy in the saddle. The jumps come up so fast and at such a variety of angles, heights and widths in the showjumping ring, that you have to be quick-witted and able to get your horse out of trouble if the stride's going wrong.

The good thing about showjuming and eventing is that it teaches you timing and pace - you have a maximum time limit or you incur time faults. You also cannot go belting at something like a nutter in case you knock it down and incur more faults, so you are constantly checking, balancing and re-balancing your horse. You can also be out of time in some competitions, so dawdling around having a good look at the audience isn't an option, either. They're very rigorous sports and brilliant grounding for steeplechasing.
 
I hear what you're saying Kri, but in none of those sports do they have 200yds or so to build up a head of steam, nor take jumps amidst other gd1 fencers, and SWC has ridden in just 68 steeplechases.
Barry Geraghty has ridden in many, many more, and is vastly more experienced; that has to make a difference - somewhere along the way.
 
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reet hard said:
I hear what you're saying Kri, but in none of those sports do they have 200yds or so to build up a head of steam, nor take jumps amidst other gd1 fencers, and SWC has ridden in just 68 steeplechases.
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Not sure where you got that figure from reet - I make it 124, not including PtP rides.
 
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Bar the Bull said:
Jose Kleberson was part of the package that won a World Cup for Brazil. Doesn't mean he is a good footballer, though.

I admire the way Waley-Cohen puts his son up on Long Run. I would do the same myself. And he clearly has a good understanding with the horse.

But to suggest that this doesn't compromise LR's chances in races is like suggesting that jockeyship isn't a skill that takes years to hone.
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The thing is not every horse can have Barry, Ruby or AP on board and there are hundreds of horses riden every week by jockeys with less talent then them that aren't owned by their dads.

Sam is probably better than 60% of the so called pros who are lucky if they ride 3 winners in a season.

What I would like to know is what has he done wrong? I doubt if one single jockey in the country could put his hand on his heart and say "I would have won on Long Run"

Long Run was beaten fair and square by the best chaser in the world.

Sam won the King George last year and The Gold Cup on him and it just doesn't get better than that, so why on earth would anyone in their right mind want to upset very successful partnership?





L
 
My point exactly, Tanlic - there's no point in presenting the AP/Ruby option because they're committed elsewhere anyway for these races. And, to be honest, sheer quantity of rides doesn't necessarily improve a rider's management of a horse. We could take driving a car as an analogy - you might drive every day, but still be below par at parallel parking (you should see mine!). I can't see where Sam's rides, per se, contributed to LONG RUN not winning every race - as Tanlic has said, the horse was beaten fairly, not because his jockey - as one might say about Sam Thomas's infamous ride on KAUTO STAR when he fell - didn't do his best by his horse. It's really time to put this particular argument to sleep and move on.
 
I do understand why people are saying they ought to use a top jockey on Long Run, and even in the Racing Post connections have said that they know Sam is not as good as a professional jockey. So it is not like they do not know what they are doing.

The horse was bought for Sam to ride and to win a Gold Cup. I think it is an amazing feat, anyone who has ever owned a racehorse will understand how hard it is just to buy a winner let alone a winner of a Gold Cup who was ridden by your son! :lol:

They don't care about the money, or even Long Run winning without Sam. He is a high strung horse and does not like change, he loves his routine and gets on well with Sam. They absolutely adore this horse and would never forgive themselves if anything should happen to him while another jockey was riding him. It may be hard to understand this but it's their dream and we are only watching, that does not make it our dream.

I applaud them for having such a huge dream and for pulling it off. Theirs is a great story which brings a different angle to the usual 'spend big, have tons of horses, use top jocks and then do it all over again'. I wish them more success and hope that fate is kind to the horse and gives him time to prove he is no fluke.
 
krizon said:
My point exactly, Tanlic - there's no point in presenting the AP/Ruby option because they're committed elsewhere anyway for these races. And, to be honest, sheer quantity of rides doesn't necessarily improve a rider's management of a horse. We could take driving a car as an analogy - you might drive every day, but still be below par at parallel parking (you should see mine!). I can't see where Sam's rides, per se, contributed to LONG RUN not winning every race - as Tanlic has said, the horse was beaten fairly, not because his jockey - as one might say about Sam Thomas's infamous ride on KAUTO STAR when he fell - didn't do his best by his horse. It's really time to put this particular argument to sleep and move on.
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Are you on the Waley Cohen gravy train Krizon? There must have been something lacking in the ride in the King George because so many people are of the same opinion. For a horse they knew was laden with stamina, sitting up Kauto's arse was not the place to be. They were never going to beat him for a turn of foot around Kempton. For one proclaimed to have good race management, SWC was simply lacking on this front. We shall agree to disagree for the time being.
 
rorydelargy said:
Not sure where you got that figure from reet - I make it 124, not including PtP rides.
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Rory
RP have him as ridden 67 UK/ 1 Irish steeplechases in the last 5 years. I may have missed some French rides, but their fences would generally be more forgiving anyway.

Fwiw, Long Run dragged his hind legs through 5 of the last 6 fences in the KG and, while the horse itself was probably the main cause, no one can say with any certainty that Barry Geraghty (the obvious understudy) wouldn't have got him to jump at least one fence better - and changed history in the process.
 
reet hard said:
Rory
RP have him as ridden 67 UK/ 1 Irish steeplechases in the last 5 years. I may have missed some French rides, but their fences would generally be more forgiving anyway.
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He had his first chase ride in 2000, reet, which accounts for the missing numbers.
 
reet hard said:
Rory
RP have him as ridden 67 UK/ 1 Irish steeplechases in the last 5 years. I may have missed some French rides, but their fences would generally be more forgiving anyway.

Fwiw, Long Run dragged his hind legs through 5 of the last 6 fences in the KG and, while the horse itself was probably the main cause, no one can say with any certainty that Barry Geraghty (the obvious understudy) wouldn't have got him to jump at least one fence better - and changed history in the process.
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I don't get this obsession with Geraghty - I seem to remember him getting an awful lot of stick on here several years back for not presenting horses atfences correctly.

Nobody had a word to say about this last season, just this - it would seem quite clear that Kauto Star has had a resurgence in form and has had the beating of him in the last 2 races - on courses which KS much better.

If Long Run doesn't win at Cheltenham, there may be a few questions asked - you would think they would work out how to beat Kauto and run the race to their best advantage.
 
If KS had been in the same form last year as he is this then LR would have no KG or GC..no matter who rode him.

LR has been overrated for beating top horses who didn't run to their marks.

The reason LR has been beaten twice this year has nowt to do with the jockey..its because he was overrated last year and those now seeing his real level want someone to blame
 
Trefflich: no, not a single penny ventured, sir! I think all we can do is to set out our stalls of opinion, some pro this, some anti that - as long as we make the opinions based on some semblance of fact, and not just wishful thinking! What we do know is that, given the choice, horses won't run races by themselves, so as far as Sam W-C goes, he seems to have done a very good job indeed in encouraging LONG RUN to perform - and exceptionally well. And it's true enough about the Geraghty dissing that went on - he wasn't everyone's favourite pilot, charming young fellow that he may be.

Yes, we shall agree to disagree and just have to wait and see - I promise not to roll on the floor squealing in glee if LONG RUN bats them all aside! :lol:
 
EC1 said:
If KS had been in the same form last year as he is this then LR would have no KG or GC..no matter who rode him.

LR has been overrated for beating top horses who didn't run to their marks.

The reason LR has been beaten twice this year has nowt to do with the jockey..its because he was overrated last year and those now seeing his real level want someone to blame
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Mate there's no bigger fan of Kauto Star than myself it must be 5 years since I said on TRF he was the best horse since Arkle and took some stick for it but if you think for one minute he is within 10lbs of what he once was I would have to strongly disagree.

I have studied Kauto inside out and when most said his Gold Cup run was the end I strongly disagreed. I reckoned he ran as good a race in the Gold Cup last season as he did in the King George this season and it wasn't until the race became all about stamina, stamina he simply doesn't have that he falterered like shot. He was going great guns until then

I was so convinced of that I couldn't get enough on him for the Betfair back at 3 miles.

That might sound crazy but look at the facts. What won him 2 Gold Cups was the instant acceleration he possessed when he was younger. He was gone in a flash and shot down the hill that fast nothing could possible get back to him even if he walked up the hill which he almost was doing when he won his first gold Cup.

He may not have been 100% when Denman galloped him into the gorund I'm sure he wasn't, but when stamina came into play that years he could hardly put one leg in front of the other. Geez Neptune Collonges nearly beat him and he'd give him 2 stone on a bad day at 3 miles.

Last year was exactly the same with his old speed gone he was at a disadvatage instead of an advatage and was gone completely the minute he hit the rising ground.



There's nothing he could have done and no matter what, Long Run who I don't rate anywhere near as highly as most, would have won the race last year.

In this years King George if that had been Kauto at his KG 2009 brilliant best instead of a steady increase of the pace from 5 out Ruby would have pressed the button and he'd have gone 15 lengths clear and hacked up. You only need to watch how he's stopping in the losing stages of the King George to realise he's not the horse he once was.

It was fantastic , it had me almost in tears but let's not kid ourselves that old age isn't catching up with him rapidly.

I wish PN would put him away and bring him back for next years Betfair/King George because the thought of him struggling up that damn hill again saddens me.

That said I sincerely hope I am wrong and it was just luck that I got it right in the Betfair and he wins another Gold Cup but I just cannot for the life of me see it..
 
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What wins Kauto his races,apart from his other qualities , is that acceleration he puts in ,usually between the second or third last and the last. Burns off most opposition. And will again with Long Run. He is getting older like most of us ,but there is still more to come in my book
 
Another top ride from Sam today...Rajdhani Express 2.40 Huntingdon...just how much does a horse need to have in hand for him to ride a winner?
 
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