When Is A Horse Too Old To Race.

Sheikh

Sheikh

At the Start
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
4,284
Location
The Garden
I would be interested to hear peoples views on this after reading that Happy Hussar passed away. I don't wish to upset anyone but it can't be a huge surprise when a horse of that age dies of a heart attack from racing. I'm sure he did love his racing but there comes a time in everyone's life when they need to learn how to live another way. My Father nearly worked his way into an early grave too (also a heart attack) He couldn't see anything beyond work but is now very happy in his retirement (not in a field, mostly on a golf course :) ) ...point is saying the horse loved what he did for me is not a reason to race a fifteen year old. There are retraining programs etc. I'm sure there are plenty that raced after 12 and retired fine eventually but the likelihood of them dropping dead is greater.
 
I very much have to disagree with you there, Sheikh - where do you draw the line and how do you go about it?

Each horse should be considered on its individual merits - without wanting to get into the HH debate, the horse was very well, loving his work and it was thought by connections that he would only be unhappy retired, so whilst he was still showing such zest for life he remained in training.

We have a 14yo at our yard currently out enjoying his summer break. There has been no talk of retiring him as yet and as things stand he will come back into training for next season after his break. He won a 3m chase last year and was placed this year, so he's not entirely useless either! The old boy can get as fresh as the next horse and is very much capable of taking a tug on the gallops, indeed he's run away with most people who have ridden him (no, he hasn't managed it with me yet!!) and has done even this season past. If you saw him, you'd think he was twelve at the most, he's healthy and thrives on his work.
 
I don't know how I would justify drawing the line but if I had a NH horse who was approaching there 14th birthday I don't think my conscience would allow me to race them in that new year regardless of how fesh he/she looked and behaved.

I accept that some horses would be miserable for a while, due to an enforced retirement but I think they would adapt as all retirees must.Of course it's a personal thing I'm not advocating some kind of rule on the issue I just get annoyed when old boys die on the track because the ticker couldn't cope.
 
There's nothing to say that their heart can't give out at any time or age, pursuing one of pretty much any activities, though. If the horse is fit, well and healthy, loving their work, there is no reason they should be retired just down to their age. You have to consider each horse separately, on its own merits, the same as people - I know people in their 60s who are as fit as a flea, and those in their 20s who are lardarses. I know who I'd place money on to have a heart attack first!

I think that ultimately you have to leave the decision as to what is best for the individual animal to those that know them best. No-one is wanting to see their horses keel over and die of a heart attack on the track and I think you have to afford some respect to those that know the horse best that they have taken that fully into consideration.
 
It might seem flippant, but what exactly is wrong with a horse dropping dead? They aren't human and won't spend ten years in front of the telly in a pair of bedroom slippers before quietly shuffling off their mortal coil to go to horse heaven. In many cases elderly horses will eventually have to be shot, but we're ok with that because we have a bizarre notion of what "quality of life" means for equines. The key should be what is least cruel surely and each case judged on its merits ~ there is not necessarily any shame in the death in action of a willing racehorse.
 
Exactly, Rory - whether equine or human, the only sufferers when something dies a sudden death are those left behind.

The horse can't give a proverbial for sure !

I've had a yearling drop dead in stable from an aortic rupture - it can happen at any time, any place and under virtually any circumstances.

Happy was properly looked after, fit, well and eager to do the job and as he was a gelding and the only other alternatives were hacking and/or life in a field, what's the big deal ?

And, quite frankly, I don't see the need to have raised this particular topic at all, given that the author knew that there are very close personal connections to the horse posting on here. The disclaimer is hollow.

Very bad form.
 
There are famously some racehorses who hate being out of training - they love yard routine, love going racing, and pine when in a field in the summer. All who knew HH have long been convinced he is one of those, and was best off living [and if necessary dying] as he did, for so long as was possible given he was pretty well too headstrong to make a decent hack, and they'd long been racking their brains what to do with him had he survived his final race. I respect their judgment, which was not bourne at all of thoughtless greed, esp given the people concerned.

In fairness Songsheet, as HH's closest 'connection' hasn't posted here much since Sheikh joined, I doubt he did know quite what a contentious subject this could be - or quite how much distress he might be causing by starting the thread. Best left alone though, I agree

Kylkenny is still racing at 15 isn't he? - gives every appearance of loving it too
 
I don't think in general people are giving this topic due consideration and I think everyone who is involved with racing has lost a horse at some stage including myself but I'll leave it alone and perhaps come back to it at a time when it's not so close to the bone .

Songsheet I thought your comments where unfair.
 
Originally posted by Sheikh@Jun 11 2008, 01:23 PM
I don't think in general people are giving this topic due consideration and I think everyone who is involved with racing has lost a horse at some stage including myself but I'll leave it alone and perhaps come back to it at a time when it's not so close to the bone .

Songsheet I thought your comments where unfair.
Click to expand...
More than unfair Sheikh; downright ridiculous.
 
Originally posted by Sheikh@Jun 11 2008, 02:23 PM
I don't think in general people are giving this topic due consideration
Click to expand...
Do you really think so, Sheikh? In posting that comment it seems to me that is implying that the connections of older horses aren't giving their horses due consideration before running them, which I feel is unfair in the majority of cases. When it comes to running a horse, the trainer, owner, stable staff, sometimes the jockey, will all have a chance to put across their opinion on whether a horse is healthy enough to run. In the case of our old fella the trainer [also the owner], the jockey and at least four riders who ride him on the gallops all get to have their input and if we said we thought he'd had enough then it would be talked about and he probably wouldn't run again.

As you say, we've all lost horses - the last one I lost was only five years old and suffered a twisted gut from a bout of colic; these things can happen at any age.

Oh, and very well said Rory - it's a contentious subject I know and there's a lot of sense in what you say.
 
My 16yo gelding is still enjoying life and ran in 4 points last year and one this year, he leads my baby up the gallops and is loving life. I was tempted to enter him in a veterans chase last season but his mark of 126 does seem hard given he is a duck egg grabber in points.
 
Perhaps a study should be done on the degradation of the cardiovascular system in horses as they get older as it appears to me that horses that die on the race track due to this are older.I would prefer to lessen the chances of my horse "dropping dead" by knowing the likelihood of it having a heart attack due to its age. If you knew your horse was at severe risk of having a heart attack would you race him ?

I am not suggesting that people are racing horses that do not appear to be well .
 
Putting Sheikh’s postings in the context of his previous contributions to the forum, I think it’s fair to say no hurt or malice was intended in this thread and that it was something he genuinely wanted to discuss.

Speaking of older horses…is Adamant Approach retired?
 
I've never had a horse I owned die under any circumstances - yet! :what:

I think I would prefer (if that's the right word) my horse to be of a certain age (ie. over 10) and die doing something he/she loves than breaking down on the gallops or suffering a horrendous fall on the track and having to be shot! :(

No one likes losing a racehorse under any circumstances, but if I had a 12 yo horse and he/she loved racing, I wouldn't stand in his/her way - in fact I would positively support the trainer. If the horse died of a heart attack on the track, although I would clearly be heartbroken, I certainly wouldn't be looking to blame anyone for the loss. I must admit I would be thrilled if any horse of mine was still wanting to race at that age.

It's slightly different with Bay Hawk, as he has a ticking time bomb in shape of a tendon injury - that although is fine now, could cause him problems in the future. He is a racehorse, he loves his racing and I trust Brendan and his staff 100% to keep an eye on him. He is still relatively young, but the moment they say he's had enough, he will be found a good home. I would never race a horse just for my enjoyment, he has to want to do it - and be in good health as much as you can tell he is.

People forget that horses will stop racing when they have had enough and good trainers and connections will know when to call it a day. A good jockey will also be able to tell if the horses "heart" (excuse the pun) is no longer in it.

I was at Fontwell with Dave Evans and his son was riding one of his horses a few weeks back. Tony met us in the O&T's and said, he's had enough Dad - the horse was favourite but Tony pulled him up after a couple of fences. The owner was with us and said, fine - retire him. A decision made there and then by the jockey, the trainer and the owner. It happened last night at Southwell too. A trainer I know had a rather slow horse running - who ran... pretty slow. The trainer told me afterwards the owner had said if that's as good as it gets, find him a good home. The look of relief on the trainer's face was quite a picture. It can't be easy telling an owner sometimes that the horse is just not ever going to be very good. On the flip side, if you have a good older horse that loves his/her racing and the owner and trainer is happy to continue - and bearing in mind it's as expensive to train an old horse as a young one, then why not. No one can predict what a horse may die of and what's to say that an older horse is more likely to die of a heart attack than of a broken leg. shrug::
 
I have to say - Id been wondering if he would get mentioned over here - adn im glad its not in the kind of context (yet!!) of a couple of other forums....

I dont have a problem with people discussing it at all - certainally im quite happy to, it was very very sad,and its hit me really hard, but its obviously just my turn to have a shite year.
What I find more upsetting is the rubbish being written all over the place about him - to the extent that what even I have written elsewhere has been twisted and expanded upon to make some people look like they know far more than they do.Its infuriating to me,because Ive been careful what Ive said publicly about what was happening there,in certain circles its been taken,elongated and used for means that really werent intended.Im more than happy to talk via PM if anyone feels the need to ask things - its hard enough as it is,without reading the speculation that some people write.(be it nasty or well intentioned!!)
Im fairly sure there is only one person that comes on here who really knows the score - and Id much rather have the chance to tell what goes on,rather than reading the various interpretations of it that have been flying about in the various places.(unless you see anyone bitching that I havent spotted - then please - let rip at them for me!!!!!)

FWIW (not least because its now very close to my heart) I agree - there should be some kind of investigation into the degeneration of the heart muscles as horses get older - apart from anything else,it would be interesting to compare a 15 year old racehorse with the same age riding school,show and pleasure horse (for the record, my money would be on the show horse being by far and away the worst condition) ANY thing that can help get some answers can only be good for the industry and the horses.

As songsheet says - horses (like people) can have heart atacks at any age,doing anything.its one of those things that you cant plan for,nor do you get any warning. As for 2 and 3 year olds, there are a few that die with heart problems - I should think that is because of the extra strain too young - but I wouldnt like to say with any certainty.I know they have done tests on the bone density and things, proving that bones arent sufering too much from training early, but I havent looked into anything about hearts to know if there are any studies flying about.


One of the girls who ride in the race posted on another forum that he "came past her to jump the 2nd last,bowled past her happily,wasnt even blowing, popped the hurdle, then after a few strides his head suddenly came up and he went down"

Hardly the running of a distressed horse that was likely to die, it was a very very sad,unfair end to a lovely,genuine horse who was much loved by everyone who ever met him.
 
Trudi, you have to remember that there are many people on racing forums - and other forums sometimes speak or react through partial or total ignorance. Not always their fault - but maybe they really don't understand. Maybe no one will change their opinion which is their perogative. I am not sure why you prefer to answer questions via PM, why not answer them on an open forum. shrug:: No one has done anything wrong where the racing of HH is concerned, and perhaps you are able to educate a few people along the way if people want a few answers. Not all - but, perhaps a few!

Plenty of people know how close you were to this soldier of a racehorse, and nothing is ever going to change your opinion of the horse, the trainer or the owners or their reasons to continue to race him.

Forums like this one can be brilliant for enabling people to learn - and this is one subject I am sure you are far more adequately equipped to respond to than anyone else. Especially if anyone has anything to ask about the racing of older horses and in particular - HH!
 
Well put Trudi ~ we're all really sad for your loss and you're enormously well balanced to be able to see that there are two stories here, the human story of those who worked with and doted on a horse who has died which is led by emotion, and the reasonable debate about what is best for racehorses in general which by nature should be intellectually and academically based.
 
:brows: :laughing: -

Does it matter why Id rather do it by PM? Ive just had enough of seeing what Ive put taken completly out of context and words put into my mouth that just werent there.For example - Ive never said what the plans were for him after - and theres a BIG difference between not being a happy hacker,not being rehomable and being better off dead....
P'raps Im wrong (lets face it, I am fairly regually!!! :laughing: )anyone GENUINELY wanting to know things rather than just after something to make them look "in the know"will make the effort to PM!

As you know,People are always goign to have an opinion about the various happenings in the racing world - Id just rather this wasnt discussed in the way it has been. I have no worries talking about it publicly,like you correctly say - there was nothing wrong with the way Happy was treated (at any stage of his career), but to be honest - its nobodys business but the people nearest the horses - and that they are being derided for doing what they think is best by their horse,is madness. I suffer from speak first think later - Im not goign to let people who dont know the first thing about the situation have their twopennies worth without standing up for people who have done nothing wrong!!!
Somehow my saying that he wasnt considered to be a good candidate for a hacking home has been transfigured into I think its better for him to have died/he would have been put down and all manner of other options - none of which were anywhere near the truth - being unsuitable for hacking is COMPLETLY different to not being rehomable - as anyone with half a pennys worth of horse knowledge knows. (I think what I actually said is that if he could choose,I think hed have picked that,its quick and there can never be an argument that he loved his racing - what better way to go?!)that doesnt mean I wanted him dead- I, like everyone, wanted him bimbling about until his dying day,so I could still visit and feed him polos!!!

There are too many people who pick things up from forums for gossip,Im not interested in supplying it!!!!!

(does that make sense to anyone other than me?? Its easy for me - I know what I mean!!!!!)
 
Blimey - first time me and interlectuall have ever been mentioned in the same paragraph.... (you can tell - I cant even spell it!!!)

I really do think there should be some testing done(if there hasnt!) - if for no other purpose than for the racing world to be able to come up with some data supporting the running of older horses....
 
Originally posted by trudij@Jun 11 2008, 07:35 PM
Blimey - first time me and interlectuall have ever been mentioned in the same paragraph.... (you can tell - I cant even spell it!!!)

oh and I cant edit the post above - I didnt mean the bit about "can it be understood " sarcastically - Ive just read it back and realised how it reads!! I was just getting confused and was concerned that it wouldnt make sense.!!!!
Click to expand...
It reads exactly as I feel you meant it Trudi ~ that you are happy to talk to people who are genuinely concerned without providing ammunition for those who want to be devious. Good for you, too!
 
Originally posted by rorydelargy+Jun 11 2008, 07:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rorydelargy @ Jun 11 2008, 07:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-trudij@Jun 11 2008, 07:35 PM
Blimey - first time me and interlectuall have ever been mentioned in the same paragraph.... (you can tell - I cant even spell it!!!)

oh and I cant edit the post above - I didnt mean the bit about "can it be understood " sarcastically - Ive just read it back and realised how it reads!! I was just getting confused and was concerned that it wouldnt make sense.!!!!
Click to expand...
It reads exactly as I feel you meant it Trudi ~ that you are happy to talk to people who are genuinely concerned without providing ammunition for those who want to be devious. Good for you, too! [/b][/quote]
:D :D Phew - thats exactly what I meant!!!
 
Well, it's up to you Trudi.

When people use to (and still continue) to twist things I say or said I prefered to correct them in public so that those people reading the forum(s) can make up their own minds.
 
Back
Top