Where Now For Godolphin?

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This is not a Godolphin bashing thread...but surely serious questions need to be asked. They had a good carnival but a disasterous World Cup night and now after Ibn Khaldun's dismal effort (in the context of the extremely positive reports) it looks very possible Godolphin will go without a Classic winner this season as they admitted to having very little for the middle distance races.

Not sure if it the trainer, the policy of wintering in Dubai, or John Ferguson's purchasing....but surely there will have to be some sort of shake up?

When you consider they purchased Raven's Run, New Approach, Fast Company etc and still Coolmore won the Guineas with an 11/1 shot.....Sheikh Mo will not be a happy man tonight.
 
I was wondering if you would be able to write a Godolphin thread without mentioning Coolmore, Ballydoyle or Aiden O'Brien. The latter you side stepped, with a rhetorical question at the start of para two, and just for a brief moment, I thought yes, he's going to see the trip out, until para 3.

Are you sure this isn't a backdoor Ballydoyle appreciation thread, if it isn't, (as you assure us) not a Godlophin bashing thread?
 
I deffo think wintering in Dubai has to be reconsidered. After all they have enough horses to keep some over there for the Carnival and to keep their best turf horses here. This is not the first time they have got off to a disastrous start of the season
 
If you feel there are no questions to be answered regarding Godolphin's recent disappointing seasons after the massive expenditure that's fine Warbler. You can question an organisation's techniques without bashing them....hence the the suggestions I mentioned or tried to bring up in the debate rather than just having a go at them.

Clearly the success of Godolphin is linked to the success of Coolmore.
 
Ferguson purchasing is not the problem, they bid for the same horses Ballydoyle does.

It is something with the dubai affair or something wrong in the training.
 
Originally posted by sunybay@May 3 2008, 06:07 PM


It is something with the dubai affair or something wrong in the training.
Click to expand...
I think same suny and stated similar to someone after last years DWC disaster with Dicreet Cat
 
Iguazu Falls stopped quickly at Donny I would hazard a guess Saeed Bin Suroor wouldn't get a flea fit let alone a racehorse.

GIve it a month and they will bounce back. I hope.

EC1 just because a horse doenst grow doesn't mean it hasnt trained on, some horses get stockier or stronger not ness taller.

Ibn I'm told blew for 35 minutes after the race, not the sign of a race fit horse imo.
 
It cannot simply be lack of fitness though Chris....many of their other Guineas disappointments have hardly come roaring back at Group 1 level later in the year.
 
I remember Tobougg oh so well as I had alot to do with him as a 2yo.

He was dreadful first for Godolphin esp in Guineas. ran similar to Ibn.

However in Champion and Derby he was back to his best.

I just dont think they can get there horses on song it seems when they have to spend 30 days in quarentine when they return.
 
I was surprised by the size of Ibn Khaldun as well - he is a horse I had regarded as fairly big, or certainly large enough, as a two year old but looked quite small today on the TV cameras whilst going around the paddock.

I think it is possibly questionable the way Godolphin go about wintering the horses in Dubai; by all means take them away to a warmer climate but you would want to bring them back in plenty of time to give them time to settle back in and get used to the British weather. Running them within a week or so of landing isn't going to do them much good in terms of allowing them to acclimatise or getting used to their new routine in a different place. If they are brought back a good 6 weeks before the Guineas they have some sort of timescale within which to ge tback into the swing of things - you simply can't just chop and change a horse's daily routine and expect them to take it all in as normal.
 
Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@May 3 2008, 08:35 PM
Iguazu Falls stopped quickly at Donny I would hazard a guess Saeed Bin Suroor wouldn't get a flea fit let alone a racehorse.
Click to expand...
That would be because the box broke down on the way to the races, and Iguazu Falls was stuck in it for 6 hours.
 
Originally posted by Jamie+May 3 2008, 10:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jamie @ May 3 2008, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chrisbeekracing@May 3 2008, 08:35 PM
Iguazu Falls stopped quickly at Donny I would hazard a guess Saeed Bin Suroor wouldn't get a flea fit let alone a racehorse.
Click to expand...
That would be because the box broke down on the way to the races, and Iguazu Falls was stuck in it for 6 hours. [/b][/quote]
Why did they run him ?.
Vincent o Brien wintered horses in southern Italy in the late 1960's but gave up after a few years.The Godolphin experiment got off to an amazing start but in hindsight it was probably due to the calibre of horse they had at the time.They are massive underacheivers in relation to the investment involved but with the price of oil the way it is they are only going to get bigger.
 
The book stops with the trainer, he gets every assistance he wants and many of the top two yr olds are purchased for him. Many disappear and are never seen on the race course again. What's he doing to them ? They need to have a good hard look at themselves. I admire Sheikh Mo as a sportsman and the way he handles himself but he needs a good Shake (pardon the pun).They're using enough resources to run (another) small country and they're not getting results. Maybe they need to downsize,cut out the dead wood and start again. One things for sure Sin Bins judgement is lousy.
 
An ungenerous response Warbler to a key issue.

I am in the suny camp. They need to get back to basics in the way horses are handled. It took 300 years to get where we are. Dubai winters are nonsense. Secondly the trainer - God bless Sheikh Mos patience. They need to start buying Coolmore yearlings.

The comparison with Ballydoyle is valid. That is the benchmark they have chosen. Its like Chelsea getting relegated.
 
The Dubai winters are a good idea if only they brought the horses back earlier. The last lot of horses came back on Monday a week before the guineas and having worked with horses that have run abroad in Dubai, Australia, Hong Kong and many other places, some like humans take longer to get over it than others. If it was down to me i would just bring them back a month before and give them an easy week before starting back in strong work.

The horse at Doncaster last night was stuck on the box for 6 hours after breaking down on its way to the track and looked a mess when it got there black with sweat and for me was never going to run to its best after that.
 
Godolphin often have periods of poor form. They did last season and then came good again with a vengeance when you could once again back them with confidence.

I think it is a bit early to be writing them off isn't it?
 
Iguazu Falls looked something of a free-goer last year too and I'm not sure he'll get 1m as well as shorter.
 
As Godolphin have shown in past seasons numbersix, it is indeed folly to be writing them off already - then again the same thing happens every single year at this time and this place just wouldn't be the same without it!!!

As I said earlier, and fudge has said, I am convinced that they bring the horses back to the UK from Dubai too late every year so they do not have the time to settle in and acclimatise before the big races of the season begin.

Look at last year (and indeed, years prior to that as well) - was it not around Royal Ascot time when the boys in blue started having winners all over the place?
 
And I've said it too and every time the question of IK in the 2000 has come up lately I've said it again - they MUST understand you can't acclimatise a horse in a week or two for these championship races! Putting heat lamps in the boxes doesn't help when they get out onto the track in a cold wind.

As I said earlier in the thread imo the only answer it so have two strings and to keep one here to overwinter for the early races, and one in Dubai
 
Numbersix they have to be compared with Ballydoyle that's the League they are in resources wise and in that perspective they are a write off.
 
I know it doesnt tell the full story, but the Kazzia and Rule of Law are the only english classic winners that Saeed Bin Suroor has trained in the 21st century.
 
There is no need to bash Godolphin as they pretty much do the job themselfs anyway. I am at a loss that these things still need discussing here, its been the same season after season but people on here still had the light-blue glasses on, and still have. Compared with the amount of money thats been spent on yearlings, bloodstock, breeding rights etc. the record has been horrible to say least, and one Ramonti does not make a spring. People see bin Suroors name in the "Leading Trainer" list and see a good percentage winners to runners, but just think about how many runners they have compared to horses in the yard!

The reaction after the 1000 Guineas I was lucky or not lucky enough to witness was very telling: after Laureldean Gale finished an encouraging third last in the 1000, I saw Frankie smiling and joking. He actually told Sheik Mo that it " was not that bad" "but we won´t get the filly there" (whatever that means, but it was all he said) , after that he said thank you very much and hopped away, and Crisford did the talking. The only one with no saying at all, and he was never directly adressed by the Sheik either, was Bin Suroor!
 
In a nutshell, I think Bin Suroor is useless. He has got to go! I think its often unfair to compare Coolmore and Godolphin, since one have Aiden OBrien, the other Bin Suroor....Im sure if the trainer swap jobs, the results would be different.

Regarding the horses coming back from Dubai....when they first started doing it, they won a lot of the early Classics, I cant remeber the horses name ( im sorry for being lazy), but at the time, they were hailed as pioneers, since it was argued the warmer climate in Dubai bought their horses more forward compare to their english counterparts.
 
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