Why don't they just...

Bachelors Hall

Bachelors Hall

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I'm venturing into the realms of absurd whimsy here but stick with me.

Why doesn't the BHA just withhold the publication of racecards (after all, it is their property) to the bookies and form an exchange for fixed odds punters and a totalisator system for those who like to play forecasts and whatnot.

The French don't even bother with the exchange thing yet even their shitiest of races are worth at least seven grand sterling.

This seems so absurdly simple. Why don't they do it?

What, if any, legal ramifications would there be?

Do we blame Thatcherite ideals for destroying racing's levy?

Why doesn't/can't the BHA action the aforementioned plan?
 
The BHA need racecards in the media, and once they're out there, they don't have the right to withold them from chosen parties (pretty sure there was a European Court ruling to that effect, a while ago?).
 
As the Racing Post are currently proving you don't need any kind of official license to print racecards.
 
Bachelors Hall said:
The French don't even bother with the exchange thing yet even their shitiest of races are worth at least seven grand sterling.

?
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The French model is even more screwed than ours. Their turnover is in rapid decline and nobody goes racing (which is the only way to get new customers) and they ramped the take out up recently too.

We don't know how lucky we are over here as punters.
 
Agree with GS. Only having the PMU would be a nightmare and despite the constant whining about prize money, UK racing is the second most attended sport in the UK.
 
Aragorn said:
racing is the second most attended sport in the UK.
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I would suggest that is a cultural thing and largely unrelated to the existence of bookmakers.

I could live with the idea of on-course bookmakers but would much prefer to see them wrapped up in a parcel and sent to fcuk.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I would suggest that is a cultural thing and largely unrelated to the existence of bookmakers.

I could live with the idea of on-course bookmakers but would much prefer to see them wrapped up in a parcel and sent to fcuk.
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Totally disagree with you on that. Bookmakers on course add huge excitement to a day at the races and most run of the mill punters love it

Walking up and queuing at a window where some fat slob takes your dosh with a sour face just isn't the same.

From a seasoned punters stand point you wouldn't go near them with a bargepole if you were backing a horse over 4/1 when you can get better odds elsewhere (Betfair) but they are very necessary to keep the tradition of British racing.

British racing is British racing it's not run in the same fashion as French or American racing and the prize money could be better but it's still the best in the world so why knock it and compare it to what the froggies are doing?
 
Fair dos, Tanlic, but British racing is a rip-off and prize money so poor because of what the bookies are taking out of it. They're not just skimming the surface. They're syphoning out vast percentages. I would happily do without the bookies and put up with the PMU (but maybe without coupling) as I tend not to bet much at under 3/1. I'm always on the lookout for better prices which I think I would get in a pool system given the way I punt.

On the few occasions I go racing I'm still surprised at the popularity of tote betting. It's maybe mainly day trippers just there for the fun but I reckon there would be more of them and more windows open if it only cost, say, a fiver to get in.

My first day racing was at Hamilton. My old man took me there as an 18th birthday present. We'd been to Shawfield a few times and my dad, a fair old punter in his day, never ever used the on-course bookies as far as I could see and he was an avid horses & dogs man.
 
I understand it's not perfect but punters want to know what odds they are getting not cross their fingers and hope for the best.

If you are a small punter betting under a tenner you'll get match at 4/1 on most 3/1 shots on Betfair if you leave your bets up long enough.

On at least 3 short priced winners today the Tote paid less than the SP and the the SP could have been better on the course or on Betfair.

I'm not sure but overall wouldn't people betting on the tote lose out?
 
Subject to correction by Maruco, in Australia there is a TAB (tote) set-up in each state and that is the only off-course betting done over the counter, more often than not in pubs or clubs. The important difference from our tote is that the TAB also offers a price that you can take as well as the normal pool betting. All available on-line as well. Bookies on-course but no betting shops as we would know them.
There are plenty of on-course bookies at the main meetings but midweek at Eagle Farm (Brisbane) there were no more than half a dozen in April and they hardly did any business with a crowd of only two or three hundred, even with free entry.

Just dug out the racecard and most of the races were for A$17000 (1.75 to the pound) with A$11000 to the winner.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
I would suggest that is a cultural thing and largely unrelated to the existence of bookmakers.

I could live with the idea of on-course bookmakers but would much prefer to see them wrapped up in a parcel and sent to fcuk.
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France has had racing for just as long, has PMU and has attendances resembling Wolverhampton on a Monday? Disagree, all part of the rich tapestry of British racing. I'm a punter, regular racegoer and have been an owner on two separate occasions. People do it for the love of the game and thats one of the reasons its still a terrific sport unlike Football which is fast becoming a commercial mechanism disguised as a sport. The money was a good thing initially now its starting to ruin it.

The ring is part of what makes UK racing great, you should go more often. I love the betting ring!! :D
 
Tanlic said:
I understand it's not perfect but punters want to know what odds they are getting not cross their fingers and hope for the best.

If you are a small punter betting under a tenner you'll get match at 4/1 on most 3/1 shots on Betfair if you leave your bets up long enough.

On at least 3 short priced winners today the Tote paid less than the SP and the the SP could have been better on the course or on Betfair.

I'm not sure but overall wouldn't people betting on the tote lose out?
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It's hard to be sure about it. Without the bookies the pool would be vastly bigger. I just wonder if the average racegoer cares whether they make a profit or not. I think most are happy to play £2-£5 per race and take what they get (even if it is a value rogering).
 
Aragorn said:
The ring is part of what makes UK racing great, you should go more often. I love the betting ring!! :D
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I would be there all the time if it wasn't so expensive. But you only have to amble down the ranks of bookies to see that they're betting in excess of 150% the first six in the betting. And it is so much worse in the 'silver ring' or 'tatts'.

That's why I believe the majority of racegoers wouldn't care/know if they were being taken from behind under a tote system.

Obviously there are other factors. The free-for-all fixtures list needs a radical overhaul. for one.
 
Christ alive there's some moronic comments on here. Just wait till Slim gets hold of you.

By far my favourite is the one that says you'll get better prices on a Tote monopoly than with bookmakers. This is literally the most stupid thing I've read this week. Take the best race today, the 7.45 Ripon, all bookmakers on Oddschecker are betting to 109% at the moment, nearly 8 hours before the race. Punters in France, US, HK, Japan etc would give their eye teeth for those percentages. It is nigh on impossible to beat a tote due to the margin and takeout. Only disciplined geniuses with sophisticated models and algorithms can beat a tote.

If you think abolishing bookmakers will see prize money go up then you're absolutely off your head. Where do you think the money from bookmakers go? They fork out significant amounts in both levy and media rights....
 
If we're going to retain the bookmaking ring here in the British Isles, then I think there needs a root-and-branch overhaul of the Starting Price Mechanism. In its present form, the SPM is affecting the integrity of betting on horseracing as a whole.
Tonight at Kempton you will have maybe four bookmakers standing. This less-than-handful number of books will be returning starting prices upon which will be settled tens of thousands of off-course and online bets. It is an insane and totally archaic system in this modern age. Of course it is also open to the manipulation which we all know is going on, i.e., the wilful shortening of odds by the big bookmaking chains by their reps putting a couple of hundred quid on a particular horse. Too often, the percentages returned from Kemp evening meetings are a complete disgrace.
It would be so easy to construct an alternative SP mechanism based on cross-industry betting patterns and Betfair SP, ............... if the will was there to do it.
 
icebreaker said:
If we're going to retain the bookmaking ring here in the British Isles, then I think there needs a root-and-branch overhaul of the Starting Price Mechanism. In its present form, the SPM is affecting the integrity of betting on horseracing as a whole.
Tonight at Kempton you will have maybe four bookmakers standing. This less-than-handful number of books will be returning starting prices upon which will be settled tens of thousands of off-course and online bets. It is an insane and totally archaic system in this modern age. Of course it is also open to the manipulation which we all know is going on, i.e., the wilful shortening of odds by the big bookmaking chains by their reps putting a couple of hundred quid on a particular horse. Too often, the percentages returned from Kemp evening meetings are a complete disgrace.
It would be so easy to construct an alternative SP mechanism based on cross-industry betting patterns and Betfair SP, ............... if the will was there to do it.
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Couldn't argue with any of that. Only concern I would have is if you start tinkering with SP and relating it to Betfair, we'll be a step closer to taking separate win and place markets rather than standard EW terms which would be a punting disaster.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Couldn't argue with any of that. Only concern I would have is if you start tinkering with SP and relating it to Betfair, we'll be a step closer to taking separate win and place markets rather than standard EW terms which would be a punting disaster.
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I agree with this, you couldn't use betfair win sp as the prices can be wildly different. I think it was yesterday there was a odds on fav, the next 2 in the betting at 6 and 7-1, there were 5 or 6 runners. Betfair was around the same price as the bookies price, but for the next two, win prices were 28 and 40. No way would any bookie give you close to 27-1 for ew purposes.
 
Fair enough.
Incorporating the Betfair SP as an element into a new mechanism would impact negatively on E/W wagering. I can see that now.
 
Gamla Stan said:
Christ alive there's some moronic comments on here. Just wait till Slim gets hold of you.

By far my favourite is the one that says you'll get better prices on a Tote monopoly than with bookmakers. This is literally the most stupid thing I've read this week. Take the best race today, the 7.45 Ripon, all bookmakers on Oddschecker are betting to 109% at the moment, nearly 8 hours before the race. Punters in France, US, HK, Japan etc would give their eye teeth for those percentages. It is nigh on impossible to beat a tote due to the margin and takeout. Only disciplined geniuses with sophisticated models and algorithms can beat a tote.

If you think abolishing bookmakers will see prize money go up then you're absolutely off your head. Where do you think the money from bookmakers go? They fork out significant amounts in both levy and media rights....
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You don't have to beat the tote to win even in the long term. You merely have to get better odds than your bet's true chances are worth. The overall percentages are really only relevant to bookmakers. They are the accountants.

I don't expect Slim to agree with me on this one. I'd be shocked if he did. But I would imagine he would word his disagreement a bit more politely but I've learned to expect the level of response you've offered.

But by way of a simple snapshot, compare Friday's Goodwood tote returns with SPs. Even the Pricewise winner paid much higher than SP. Now obviously seasoned racegoers will have tried to snaffle board or maybe online prices ahead of SPs but your average day tripper will not realise most board prices even in the expensive area are no better than the betting shop shows and in the cheap areas they are being rodgered to bugggery.
 
just mentioning the value word touched on there by DO.

no one knows what price a horse should be before a race..if they think they do i feel they are having themselves on to a degree.

lets say i can measure every known form factor there is..and form a really accurate ..imo..tissue. Five minutes before the off my already value 5/1 shot drifts to 10's...so logic decrees i absolutely hammer it using "value" mentality? Horse trails in midfield...apparently connections changed their mind after hearing another one in the race was well fancied/horse wasn't quite right on day..or a hundred other reasons..unmeasured in my tissue

so your good value..formwise..5/1 before race..was really 1000/1..so you actually backed one of the worst value horses in the history of horse racing

the best a punter can hope for is that every 100 bets they show a profit..that's real value...not tissues that can be ripped up before race given above scenario.

Tissues are all right for blowing your nose on..any individual race tissue created will be flawed
 
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How about having an adjustment to the starting price calculation so that the total over-round is capped at, say, 110%? If the Kempton cartel comes up with a 120% over-round in any given race, every off-course SP is automatically raised to bring the over-round down to 110%. The relative odds are the same but everyone gets a fair shake and it shouldn't impact EW betting. It would mean SPs being declared in decimal but Betfair and the Tote don't have a problem with that.
 
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