The Gold Cup 2010

SteveM said:
For me it is a mark of how great Kauto Star is that he was able to win two Gold Cups. Imperial Call and Denman are naturals round Cheltenham, Kauto is not. We should not be surprised that his jumping show cracks when he comes under pressure here. They have spent a lot of time getting his jumping right, but he is able to show off his strengths more impressively at Kempton than here.
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Please explain the pressure he was under when he made his first mistake? They were practically crawling round at the time and he'd just put in a massive leap at the fence before it IIRC - hardly the sign of a horse struggling with his jumping.

When he came down, yes he was under pressure - but given he travelled poorly after his first mistake and was starting to struggle it's hardly surprising. He's also hardly the first to come down at that fence, it's notorious for catching horses out.

Kauto threw in a bad one - it's happened before and it will probably happen again. Nothing to do with the course at all - he's done it at Haydock, Newbury and Kempton before.
 
SteveM said:
It would have been great to see the three of them jump the last together, but he looked beaten when he fell.
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Yup. On account of his first mistake. It knocked him out of his rhythm and he couldn't get back into it. I can't think of another horse around that would have overcome it.
 
Flagship uberalles said:
Please explain the pressure he was under when he made his first mistake? They were practically crawling round at the time and he'd just put in a massive leap at the fence before it IIRC - hardly the sign of a horse struggling with his jumping.

When he came down, yes he was under pressure - but given he travelled poorly after his first mistake and was starting to struggle it's hardly surprising. He's also hardly the first to come down at that fence, it's notorious for catching horses out.

Kauto threw in a bad one - it's happened before and it will probably happen again. Nothing to do with the course at all - he's done it at Haydock, Newbury and Kempton before.
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Thank you Flagship. I don't think he was beaten at the point he fell. I thought Walsh was panicking. If he had have been in contention at the last fence one cannot say with any certainty that he would not have won. If he had jumped the last with the other two he would have given IC a battle.
 
Flagship uberalles said:
Please explain the pressure he was under when he made his first mistake? They were practically crawling round at the time and he'd just put in a massive leap at the fence before it IIRC - hardly the sign of a horse struggling with his jumping.

When he came down, yes he was under pressure - but given he travelled poorly after his first mistake and was starting to struggle it's hardly surprising. He's also hardly the first to come down at that fence, it's notorious for catching horses out.

Kauto threw in a bad one - it's happened before and it will probably happen again. Nothing to do with the course at all - he's done it at Haydock, Newbury and Kempton before.
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…the pressure of running at Cheltenham against horses capable of taking him on (as Hamm said Denman ran a passive race last year). Kauto can operate within a comfort zone elsewhere. He did put in a great leap before he hit the plain fence, but his style of jumping will always verge between the spectacular and the ordinary to plain bad. The two at the front started to stag them from then on making the right shape in the air, while Kauto reverted to flinging himself at the fences. The writing was on the wall some way out.
 
I thought he was beaten when he fell. I thought from the moment he made his mistake, he was unable to quite pick the pace up comfortably again.
 
That is one of KS's faults - that flinging himself at his fences. Most of the time, he gets away with it (viz the bulldozing at Sandown, etc.), but it's not to be recommended as a way of digging yourself out of a hole - not when up against the consistent quality of a horse like DENMAN's jumping, his ability to get smoothly away from his fences, and his relentless onward gallop.
 
G-G said:
Thank you Flagship. I don't think he was beaten at the point he fell. I thought Walsh was panicking. If he had have been in contention at the last fence one cannot say with any certainty that he would not have won. If he had jumped the last with the other two he would have given IC a battle.
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You're entitled to your view, but I think in fairness most would say the opposite. I would have loved to see the three jump the last together, but after his blunder that was never going to happen. He fell because he couldn't go with them after his initial error.
 
krizon said:
That is one of KS's faults - that flinging himself at his fences. Most of the time, he gets away with it (viz the bulldozing at Sandown, etc.), but it's not to be recommended as a way of digging yourself out of a hole - not when up against the consistent quality of a horse like DENMAN's jumping, his ability to get smoothly away from his fences, and his relentless onward gallop.
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Well put kri. They have worked hard on him to iron this out and from within his comfort zone you rarely see it these days. But when he’s under pressure on catch-up he reverts to type.
 
Analysis to paralysis. He hit the fence and couldn't recover. Simples. All this talk of Denman taking him out of his comfort zone and not acting on the track is hogwash.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
I thought he was beaten when he fell. I thought from the moment he made his mistake, he was unable to quite pick the pace up comfortably again.
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I agree totally. The horse wasn't travelling at all from some way out and Ruby had been giving him backhanders already before he fell as well as switching him from the inner to the outer and having to niggle him along quite a bit.
 
Delighted for NTD, saying afterwards they'd go for the Ryanair cause he doesn't stay! !!!

Knew something was goin to go wrong for Kauto when Nicholls was talking bout "one" of his will have to get beat. How bout both, is what I was tinkin, hence small profit on IC!!!!!
 
SteveM said:
…the pressure of running at Cheltenham against horses capable of taking him on (as Hamm said Denman ran a passive race last year). Kauto can operate within a comfort zone elsewhere. He did put in a great leap before he hit the plain fence, but his style of jumping will always verge between the spectacular and the ordinary to plain bad. The two at the front started to stag them from then on making the right shape in the air, while Kauto reverted to flinging himself at the fences. The writing was on the wall some way out.
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If you say last year was a "passive" race by Denman - I'm assuming you are basing this on the pace of the race - what would you describe the pace they were going at on the first circuit this year?

Your argument does not make sense - you are saying that Kauto won the race last year due to a "passive" race by Denman and not having his jumping put under pressure and then implying that Kauto's jumping was under pressure at an even slower pace this year. You can't have it both ways.

Kauto lost because of the mistake he made - losing his position and costing him momentum at a point just before the pace of the race began to pick up. He didn't jump or travel well from that point on - which is perfectly understandable given the magnitude of the mistake. The fact that he was still in contention four out is to his credit and not his detriment - compare that to where Imperial Commander was at Kempton following a similar error.
 
davidjohnson said:
Analysis to paralysis. He hit the fence and couldn't recover. Simples. All this talk of Denman taking him out of his comfort zone and not acting on the track is hogwash.
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You're entitled to see what you want to see... very far from hogwash imo though. Ask yourself why he made the mistake in the first place.
 
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Just to be clear - my point was Kauto has not performed in 2 of the 4 Gold Cups where he faced top class horses at the top of their game - I did not say Denman took him out of his comfort zone nor did I say he doesn't act round Cheltenham - i am not re-hashing any arguments prior to Cheltenham.
 
Flagship uberalles said:
Kauto lost because of the mistake he made - losing his position and costing him momentum at a point just before the pace of the race began to pick up. He didn't jump or travel well from that point on - which is perfectly understandable given the magnitude of the mistake. The fact that he was still in contention four out is to his credit and not his detriment - compare that to where Imperial Commander was at Kempton following a similar error.
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He made the mistake because he was being taken on by horses able to do so.
 
davidjohnson said:
Analysis to paralysis. He hit the fence and couldn't recover. Simples. All this talk of Denman taking him out of his comfort zone and not acting on the track is hogwash.
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Quite. Walsh didn't help him. There was not a 'race' on when he made his mistake. He makes mistakes, when he's 20 lengths clear and coming to the last and under no pressure at all, he makes mistakes. Moscow Flyer was the same. He was following Denman nicely when it happened. It just happened, not because Denman was a length and a half in front of him at that point and 'taking him on'.
 
This thread is obsessed with Kauto, he lost. IC won impressively because he jumped, get over it. If it were the other way round this thread would be all about Kauto's "majestic" performance.

He makes mistakes, he got beat, get over it.
 
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I don't think anyone on here is suggesting that Imperial Commander isn't a truly deserving Gold Cup winner.

I don't know why Kauto Star made the first mistake Steve anymore than you do. But as others have pointed put, he's clouted one in the past when he's had the race sewn up so I really don't think the theory that he makes mistakes when he's under the cosh holds up. This could continue and we could go round in circles and neither of us will change our mind so may as well leave it at that. Glad you had a good week and won a few quid.
 
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