The Gold Cup 2010

Won a few quid? The way I heard it, Steve's hosting a Talking Horses hospitality box for all of us next year. Cheers, Stevie Wonder!
 
Nothing like it . Kauto's mistake was far worse and Arkle wasn't thrown out of his rhythm at all . Anyway i still think it is hardly fair to compare any horse to Arkle.

Frankly, he looked to make a mistake as he wasn't concentrating as they were not going fast enough for him and it was an absolute cruncher . The horse never recovered his rhythm . It is a testament to him that he managed to stay so close until he fell . He would have stayed on into third not far behind Denman I suspect. FU makes a very good point about IC's mistake at Kempton - he was utterly mullered by it and dropped out before making some very moderate late headway.

The idea that KS made a mistake because he was under pressure just does not accord with the facts . I accept that Steve might have a point that KS is better suited to tracks where it is easier to recover his rhythm after such a mistake but I struggle to accept the argument that he does not handle the Cheltenham - his jumping bar the final fence in 2007 , was superb in 2007 and 2009 . In 2008 I remain convinced that he was not right - last week he was superb over the early fences- some of hs leaps drew loud gasps from the crowd and he leapt into second at the fence before his mistake.

To be frank , although it is entirely conjecture, I suspect had Neptune Collonges been around and setting a proper pace on the first circuit- that mistake would not have happened and we would be hailing his third win .
 
EC1 said:
it is something like it..as they both ran straight through the fence..no attempt to jump
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The style of the mistake was similar the effects very different - Arkle bounced on -KS was down on his nose . KS's mistake was much more serious and Arkle was in any event a freak !!!
 
I've made some basic timings off the videos of the 2008, 2009 and 2010 Gold Cups. Nothing too precise, since I can't be any more accurate than a whole second, but interesting nonetheless.

Lap1 is from the 1st fence to the 11th fence
Lap2 is from the 11th fence to the 21st fence
RunIn is from the 21st fence, over the 22nd fence, and up the hill to the finishing line

(those paying attention will realise that the 1st, 11th and 21st fence are the same, and that I'm not including the run to the first - this is because you can't be consistent about where the race actually starts!)

Timings are taken when the leader is in mid-air over the fence.

Code: 
[b]	Lap1	Lap2	RunIn[/b]
[b]2008[/b]	183	175	34
[b]2009[/b]	185	177	29
[b]2010[/b]	185	173	30

The times can't be taken literally due to ground conditions, but note how the 2008 renewal was run on slower ground and yet they still comfortably beat the first lap time of the last two years.

It may be more instructive to look at the times converted into percentages of the total (Lap1 + Lap2 + RunIn):

Code: 
[b]	Lap1	Lap2	RunIn[/b]
[b]2008[/b]	46.7	44.6	8.7
[b]2009[/b]	47.2	45.2	7.4
[b]2010[/b]	47.6	44.5	7.7

As expected, the first lap in 2008 is clearly the fastest, whilst this year's was the slowest. This includes where Kauto made his mistake, suggesting that it was not an issue with the pace.

Also in 2008, you can see how the huge effort hurt Denman as he slowed up markedly on the run in. In comparison, in 2009 Kauto fairly waltzed around the second lap and came home nice and quickly.

This year is almost a combination of the two - an even slower first lap than last year, added to an immense second lap as Carruthers and then Denman pushed on, all the time stalked by Imperial Commander, who grabbed the lead and was able to use the energy saved on the first lap to come home without any major difficulties.
 
EC1 said:
foxhunters must have been really fast early Gareth..DO said it was 6 seconds faster on first lap
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I make the first lap (again, Fence 1 to Fence 11) of Baby Run's Foxhunters' 3 seconds faster. But they paid for it...

Code: 
[b]	Lap1	Lap2	RunIn[/b]
[b]GCup[/b]	185	173	30
[b]FoxH[/b]	182	184	37

As percentages:

Code: 
[b]	Lap1	Lap2	RunIn[/b]
[b]GCup[/b]	47.6	44.5	7.7
[b]FoxH[/b]	45.0	45.5	9.2
 
Seems funny to me that when Kauto Star runs badly everyone says he's just had an 'off day', yet when Denman does similar (and he's only conclusively run badly once in his life) he's 'gone'...
 
"Which of these Gold Cup-winning performances do you rate highest?

Denman in 2008
49%
Kauto Star in 2009
32%
Imperial Commander in 2010
19%"

I thought this current poll on the RP site might be of interest here.
 
krizon said:
It's a forum, Mr.Jake, which means dissent, discussion, opinion. Get over it.
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I've no problem with that.

My problem is with the obsession with one horse who wasn't good enough, with hardly a mention of the winner.

Roll on 2011 and Weapon's Amnesty's turn!!!!!!!!!!
 
Imperial Commander has been skated over a bit in much the same way that the first two in the supreme novices were overshadowed by the (somewhat tiresome) obsession with the overrated Dunguib. Its a fair point Jake

In fairness there is more to talk about when a horse underperforms rather than runs to form
that KS is better suited to tracks where it is easier to recover his rhythm after such a mistake
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Not sure about that point frankly. Make a mistake in the straight at kempton or the back straight at sandown and the next fence is coming at you very quickly indeed.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Hardly a mention of Imperial Commander since the race was run? Complete bullshit.
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The point is we would be hearing about it 24/7 if kauto won with numerous cringe worthy interviews with clieve smith saying how it is all "jolly good", media has become so obsessed by kauto vs denman they cant accept they were both well well beaten
 
littlelad said:
The point is we would be hearing about it 24/7 if kauto won with numerous cringe worthy interviews with clieve smith saying how it is all "jolly good", media has become so obsessed by kauto vs denman they cant accept they were both well well beaten
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On this thread?
 
littlelad said:
The point is we would be hearing about it 24/7 if kauto won with numerous cringe worthy interviews with clieve smith saying how it is all "jolly good", media has become so obsessed by kauto vs denman they cant accept they were both well well beaten
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*yawn*

A horse falling = well beaten?
I remember the cringe worthy interview after the Gold Cup when NTD proclaimed his horse better then Kauto and Denman, if i remember correctly Kauto gave his horse two beatings when he didn't hit a fence and become completely unbalanced and out of rhythm then fall, but i guess a fallen horse counts as well beaten. Public forum, people can discuss what they wish, don't like it, find another hobby.
 
Eswarah said:
*yawn*

A horse falling = well beaten?
I remember the cringe worthy interview after the Gold Cup when NTD proclaimed his horse better then Kauto and Denman.
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Anyone who finds NTD's interviews cringeworthy is clearly tired of life, to misquote Johnson (not Howard).
 
Even Kauto Star's biggest fan can surely see that the horse was beaten when he fell; hells bells, he was beaten with over a circuit to go.
 
He was beaten when he crashed through a fence, yes, I noticed that. Had that not happend then who knows how the race would have turned out.

I respect what IC has done, but it is pretty far fetched to say now, just because he has come "in front" Kauto under the circumstances in the Gold Cup, that he is suddenly better?
 
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I think we can cut the trainer a little slack for being a little over excited after winning his first Gold Cup - and Imperial Commander himself jumped poorly up the home straight at Haydock so its possible he could have had two wins against the great horse.

I thought NTD's and Paddy Brennan's interviews after the Gold Cup were a real highlight - and one in which both emphasised how glad they were that Kauto had not come to harm.

Eswarah said:
He was beaten when he crashed through a fence, yes, I noticed that. Had that not happend then who knows how the race would have turned out.

I respect what IC has done, but it is pretty far fetched to say now, just because he has come "in front" Kauto under the circumstances in the Gold Cup, that he is suddenly better?
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I'm not saying that - I'm questioning your assertion that Kauto Star was not well beaten in the race. Apart from anything else, he didn't complete, so yes, strictly speaking he was well beaten! Seriously though even had he stood up he certainly wouldn't have won, he was sending out distress signals very early on in the race.

Like Rory says, Twiston's interviews are anything but cringeworthy; he's clever, good value and often very funny to boot. Leave the guy alone; especially in those few minutes after he's won the Gold Cup with a horse virtually ignored by the media in the massive "Kauto v Denman" palaver he's entitled to have his moment in the sun.
 
You'd think somone in the jumping game would appreciate the press that the Kauto and Denman rivalry brought to the sport. I'm not one for the connections of horses so NTD's comments directly after what had been a highly emotional few minutes for any fan of Kauto really hit a nerve. I was as easily wound up by the constant blabbering commercials of Findlay and Smith during the festival coverage so it isn't just restricted to one chap.
 
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