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Road to the 2022 Champion Hurdle

I don’t think it matters, DO. Faugheen clearly the best whether you look at Cheltenham or Irish Champion Hurdle form as individual races, or as an overall measure of ability.
 
This idea that you’ve done nothing until you’ve proven it at Cheltenham is a cop out. Hurricane Fly has a statue at Leopardstown and it’s not solely because he won two Champions Hurdles. Is because of them and everything else achieved in a brilliant career.
 
Tanlic said:
You assume Reet but it clearly you did not check the facts. I don't mean to offend but way too many people just assume and don't check the facts.

It clearly was not the case as Hurricane Fly clocked a time of 3m 59.35s while Champagne Fever clock at time almost 4 seconds faster an hour earlier 3m 55.60s in the Supreme.

From the 2nd last Champagne Fever hit the line in 38 Seconds Hurricane Fly hit the line in 41 seconds so cleraly Hurrcane Fly matched strides with those in the Supreme but just didn't have the toe to go with them in the latter stage of the races.
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He "didn't have the toe" simply because of the earlier pace!
 
i suggest you go look at when Faugheen Hurricane Fly and Honeysuckle were at their peaks.

All three rally hit the bar when they won there champion hurdles althouch the mullins pair did go up slightly when they beat the same horses further in small fields in the Irish Champion Hurdle there next races wheras Honeysuckle was allowed to stay on her mark as she beat Epante much further and the h'capper assumed Sharjah improves slightly.

On what grounds do you make Faugheen the best is it because the rating said so? He was a flash in the pan and at the top for only 12 months and then declined like a rocket losing 7 of his next 8 hurdle races..Honest Grassy you talk some shyte at times and you do Hurricane Fly a huge injustice with your statement..

Hurricane Fly may not have been as impressive in his Champion Hurdle but he maintained his level of form for 3 times as long.

Honeysuckle has already maintained her form for 11 months and with luck she will carry on the good work for another year at least.
 
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Tanlic said:
i suggest you go look at when Faugheen Hurricane Fly and Honeysuckle were at their peaks.

All three rally hit the bar when they won there champion hurdles althouch the mullins pair did go up slightly when they beat the same horses further in small fields in the Irish Champion Hurdle there next races wheras Honeysuckle was allowed to stay on her mark as she beat Epante much further and the h'capper assumed Sharjah improves slightly.

On what grounds do you make Faugheen the best is it because the rating said so? He was a flash in the pan and at the top for only 12 months and then declined like a rocket losing 7 of his next 8 hurdle races..Honest Grassy you talk some shyte at times and you do Hurricane Fly a huge injustice with your statement..

Hurricane Fly may not have been as impressive in his Champion Hurdle but he maintained his level of form for 3 times as long.

Honeysuckle has already maintained her form for 11 months and with luck she will carry on the good work for another year at least.
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The best 2m hurdle performance since Istabraq is Faugheen’s 2016 Irish Champion Hurdle, where he beat Arctic Fire 15L (and Nicholls Canyon a further 13L) without ever coming out of a canter.

It doesn’t do Hurricane Fly an injustice to acknowledge this - it’s merely acceptance of the facts.

Hurricane Fly was a true great not necessarily based on ratings (though he put up a host of top-class performances), but other reasons too, such as his ability to recover from setbacks, his subsequent longevity, his speed over a hurdle, his relentless will to win, and his absolute clockwork consistency at the very highest level over five or six seasons.
 
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reet hard said:
He "didn't have the toe" simply because of the earlier pace!
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I checked that out Reet. Hurricane Fly 3m 59.35s Champagne Fever 3m 55.60s

Both get to the second last in just about the same time less than a second between them but Champagne Fever Quickens up or Hurrcanne Fly slows down Take your pick? but the pace of each race to the 2nd last clearly were about the same
 
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You will get bludgeoned if you try and take reet on regarding the clock. It’s like putting Charles Hawtrey in against Muhammed Ali.
 
As I said earlier, top horses do not do time trials, they race to beat the opposition and run the time they need to do that. Often they beat the opposition by just a length or two when they could have done so by ten times that amount. Often, too, they beat the opposition by a country mile because that’s where they get to when in their racing rhythm. The champions are those who beat off all that can be thrown at them in the top races where all the runners are likely to be at their peak fitness and preparedness. Some champions have it easy because the opposition is not so hot and you are left to guess how they would have got on if they had faced red-hot opposition as some have had to do.
 
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Grey said:
This idea that you’ve done nothing until you’ve proven it at Cheltenham is a cop out. Hurricane Fly has a statue at Leopardstown and it’s not solely because he won two Champions Hurdles. Is because of them and everything else achieved in a brilliant career.
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Given the importance now attached to the festival, I think it is valid to prioritise form at the meeting. It's probably true on both sides of the water that the lead-up races are little more than training gallops. That said, I do recognise the emergence of the DRF as an increasingly very serious meeting in its own right.

I myself am guilty of dismissing form at the meeting, probably until the last year or two. I think interpreting that form is now the answer to a lot of the Cheltenham races. And just as important are the horses that skipped that meeting in order to let stablemates weigh up the oppo.

I have no doubt in my own mind that the likes of Faugheen and Hurricane Fly - likewise Istabraq back in the day - were pretty much gifted G1s in Ireland. It was when they strutted their stuff at Cheltenham that their mettle was tested and that was the form that counted. Very often the figures these races generated fell below what was achieved in Ireland. At least on my figures anyway.
 
barjon said:
As I said earlier, top horses do not do time trials, they race to beat the opposition and run the time they need to do that. Often they beat the opposition by just a length or two when they could have done so by ten times that amount. Often, too, they beat the opposition by a country mile because that’s where they get to when in their racing rhythm. The champions are those who beat off all that can be thrown at them in the top races where all the runners are likely to be at their peak fitness and preparedness. Some champions have it easy because the opposition is not so hot and you are left to guess how they would have got on if they had faced red-hot opposition as some have had to do.
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Yes.
 
There you go again sticking your 10p's worth in with absolutely no fact ZERO ZILTCH F ALL to back it up.

What was it you said

Quote: Your application of the clock appears to be as rudimentary and flawed as your understanding of how ratings are derived. That being the case, there is little point in trying to ‘contest’ anything with you.

What a ******* cop out! You have no grounds for what you are saying its jusr personal ataacks one after another......Last time you turned to DO to back up your garbage and trun people against me now its lets parise Reet and get his support..I assure you that's the last place you should be sticking your hopes on.

Isuggest you learn to come yp with hard facts to support what I am saying time wise to be rubbish or keep stoom mate....You are adding nothing to the debate on times so why make silly unfounded comments?
 
Desert Orchid said:
Given the importance now attached to the festival, I think it is valid to prioritise form at the meeting. It's probably true on both sides of the water that the lead-up races are little more than training gallops. That said, I do recognise the emergence of the DRF as an increasingly very serious meeting in its own right.

I myself am guilty of dismissing form at the meeting, probably until the last year or two. I think interpreting that form is now the answer to a lot of the Cheltenham races. And just as important are the horses that skipped that meeting in order to let stablemates weigh up the oppo.

I have no doubt in my own mind that the likes of Faugheen and Hurricane Fly - likewise Istabraq back in the day - were pretty much gifted G1s in Ireland. It was when they strutted their stuff at Cheltenham that their mettle was tested and that was the form that counted. Very often the figures these races generated fell below what was achieved in Ireland. At least on my figures anyway.
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I think this betrays a shocking disregard for Irish racing, tbh, DO. Istabraq was beating horses like Moscow Flyer in Ireland over hurdle. Hurricane Fly was beating horses like Solwhit, Jezki, Our Connor etc, and Faugheen was cuffing top-class performers like the aforementioned Arctic Fire amongst others.

If recent history has told us anything, it is the UK form which is routinely tested (and shown lacking) in a Champion Hurdle. For my money, you have this completely the wrong way around.
 
Tanlic said:
There you go again sticking your 10p's worth in with absolutely no fact ZERO ZILTCH F ALL to back it up.

What was it you said

Quote: Your application of the clock appears to be as rudimentary and flawed as your understanding of how ratings are derived. That being the case, there is little point in trying to ‘contest’ anything with you.

What a ******* cop out! You have no grounds for what you are saying its jusr personal ataacks one after another......Last time you turned to DO to back up your garbage and trun people against me now its lets parise Reet and get his support..I assure you that's the last place you should be sticking your hopes on.

Isuggest you learn to come yp with hard facts to support what I am saying time wise to be rubbish or keep stoom mate....You are adding nothing to the debate on times so why make silly unfounded comments?
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1. I turn to no-one and rely on no-one, when it comes to my opinion on horse-racing.
2. I am not trying to ‘turn’ anyone against you. I am merely exercising exasperation at your nonsensical/bullsh*it arguments. By all means tell me to go fu*ck myself, if it irritates you.
3. Whilst I am myself sceptical about the use of times in NH races (well advertised over the year), posters I have known on forums - such as reet - have amply demonstrated their command of the topic. You on the other hand, have a simplistic, painting-by-numbers, approach. When you start talking about Sectionals, Par-per-furlong, Finishing Speed percentages, and all the other ‘science’ that goes along with this topic, I’ll maybe start paying attention. Until then, you are playing miles out of position against someone like reet, and will only make yourself look foolish.
 
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barjon said:
As I said earlier, top horses do not do time trials, they race to beat the opposition and run the time they need to do that. Often they beat the opposition by just a length or two when they could have done so by ten times that amount. Often, too, they beat the opposition by a country mile because that’s where they get to when in their racing rhythm. The champions are those who beat off all that can be thrown at them in the top races where all the runners are likely to be at their peak fitness and preparedness. Some champions have it easy because the opposition is not so hot and you are left to guess how they would have got on if they had faced red-hot opposition as some have had to do.
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That Barjon simply does not apply to Champion Hurdles where horses are most often at their peak and very very seldom win with headin chest, Hurricane Fly Faugheen Honeysuckle were all flat to the boards to win their Champion Hurdles.

Sure some with agree with you if it suits their argumant but jogs round Leopardstown or even Cheltenham are not Champion Hurdles but of course Mutt and Jeff are straight in their ignoring that fact

Hurricane Fly was flat to the boards as was Champagne Fever and Ruby could have gotten 1 ounce more out of either horse so please explain why the times are irrelevant for two races run under the same conditions on the same course over the same distance on the same day........
 
Grasshopper said:
I think this betrays a shocking disregard for Irish racing, tbh, DO. Istabraq was beating horses like Moscow Flyer in Ireland over hurdle. Hurricane Fly was beating horses like Solwhit, Jezki, Our Connor etc, and Faugheen was cuffing top-class performers like the aforementioned Arctic Fire amongst others.

If recent history has told us anything, it is the UK form which is routinely tested (and shown lacking) in a Champion Hurdle. For my money, you have this completely the wrong way around.
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Well it's based on going through the form with a fine tooth comb and comparing collateral lines and times.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to go back and re-examine the form with the aid of sectional analysis but I do recall concluding on several occasions that the opposition accepted they weren't going to beat the good thing and focused instead on the race for second and third. I don't have too much of a problem with that, to be honest, but it did often lead to an exaggeration of the superiority of the superstars. (Maybe sectional analysis would have shown the beaten horses burst themselves in their own races and were stopping faster late, which would also have exaggerated winning distances by the hotpots.)

I've no doubt the current UK hurdlers are bang average at best. It's a pity the likes of Altior and Shishkin weren't asked to go down the CH route before going chasing. I reckon they would have been 170-175 as second-season hurdlers.

But take Honeysuckle out of the equation and the 2m hurdlers in Ireland aren't up to much either. I think Sharjah is the highest-rated among them and we know his limitations.
 
Grasshopper said:
1. I turn to no-one and rely on no-one, when it comes to my opinion on horse-racing.
2. I am not trying to ‘turn’ anyone against you. I am merely exercising exasperation at your nonsensical/bullsh*it arguments. By all means tell me to go fu*ck myself, if it irritates you.
3. Whilst I am myself sceptical about the use of times in NH races (well advertised over the year), posters I have known on forums - such as reet - have amply demonstrated their command of the topic. You on the other hand, have a simplistic, painting-by-numbers, approach. When you start talking about Sectionals, Par-per-furlong, Finishing Speed percentages, and all the other ‘science’ that goes along with this topic, I’ll maybe start paying attention. Until then, you are playing miles out of position against someone like reet, and will only make yourself look foolish.
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There you go again not one constructive point and nothing to back up your crap. As far as sectional go agive a monkey abanana and he can turn on a race and go hurdle to hurdle but they are all about selling themself. Ruby is one of the best judges of pace has ridden more winners than these sectional winners have numbers to play with and what does he do.

Simplyfies the who thing by pring up 2 races on the same day and running them side by side which takes you5 minutes to do and gives you all the info you will ever need.

He does it very week on his show try watching it and critisise him for doing what I do bozo
 
Desert Orchid said:
Well it's based on going through the form with a fine tooth comb and comparing collateral lines and times.

Unfortunately I'm not in a position to go back and re-examine the form with the aid of sectional analysis but I do recall concluding on several occasions that the opposition accepted they weren't going to beat the good thing and focused instead on the race for second and third. I don't have too much of a problem with that, to be honest, but it did often lead to an exaggeration of the superiority of the superstars. (Maybe sectional analysis would have shown the beaten horses burst themselves in their own races and were stopping faster late, which would also have exaggerated winning distances by the hotpots.)

I've no doubt the current UK hurdlers are bang average at best. It's a pity the likes of Altior and Shishkin weren't asked to go down the CH route before going chasing. I reckon they would have been 170-175 as second-season hurdlers.

But take Honeysuckle out of the equation and the 2m hurdlers in Ireland aren't up to much either. I think Sharjah is the highest-rated among them and we know his limitations.
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No disagreement that current crop of two-mile hurdlers are historically weak - Honeysuckle excepted.
 
Why not, tan. If they were flat to the boards then that’s where they needed to be to win, whatever time happened to emerge at the end - they certainly wouldn’t have been thinking about the time :) . Pretty sure they wouldn’t have been flat to the boards from flag fall and It’s likely that the later they were flat to the boards the faster would be their finish. The earlier they were flat to the boards the more likely it would be that the finish was about who slowed least.
 
To be fair in the 1973 race Rock on Ruby did at one point when Granduet fell inject a sudden burst of speed into the race which got one or two at it but Champagnge Fever was less aggresive and steadily clawed back the differnece by the second last. That could have had some affect on the end resulting times. By the last Champange Fever was in front again but it was when they hit the hill Hurrican Fly started going up and down on the spot while CV flew up the hill and left her for dead. Champagne Fever must have been one of the toughest novices in history to do that.

The really great Champion Hurdles have the ability to quicken ona sixpense and cope with the change of pace with very little affect on their perfomance. One very good grade 2 horse was The New One who year after year failed miserbly to avoid a flat spot every time their was a change in pace which many said he may well have won a Champion Hurdle when finishing like a train after stopping like shot at the top of the hill.

That is why most novices can't cope in Champion Hurdles the sudden injection of pace which can occur a few times in one CH tears their guts out....On Sunday Ruby said exactly that novices for novices for novices but trying to tell the My Mate Mozzie brigade and trainers that is like talking to a brick wall
 
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