2008 Arc

So is Ask superior to DOM? Is the German horse superior?

You say Sunday "proved" Youmzain is superior to Youmzain....presumably it had to also "prove" Ask,It's Gino, Soldier Of Fortune are all his superior as well. They are of course not.
 
Galileo said:
So is Ask superior to DOM? Is the German horse superior?

You say Sunday "proved" Youmzain is superior to Youmzain....presumably it had to also "prove" Ask,It's Gino, Soldier Of Fortune are all his superior as well. They are of course not.
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Sunday proved Youmzain yes, because it proved his King George running was all wrong, I actually don't think there is alot between Soldier Of Fortune and the Duke, although the former enjoys cut.

Ask and Its Gino, no not for me.

By me saying Sunday proved, means I think Youmzain proved his running in Saint Cloud and here last year was a better account of his ability than at Ascot where he failed to shine. It wouldn't be the first time he hasn't run his race at Ascot.

Whilst the Duke is better than his bare form on Sunday, I don't feel he is better than Youmzain on any of his form bar Ascot which I've totally discounted.

Before Ascot I thought Youmzain would hack up but he wasn't right and came back not himself, he also was never travelling that day.

If people are going to judge Youmzain on his 2008 King George run, good luck to them, as they will go skint next season. Judge him on his Saint Cloud and 2 L'Arc efforts and you see his real ability.

For me The Duke never answered the real question at Ascot, of would he stay in a top class 12f race, I think he looks a natural 10f horse who probably stays 12f but at the highest level will be found out over 12f, as he was on Sunday.

Over 12f I would back Youmzain to beat the Duke, over 10f The Duke would beat him, I just think the Duke's performances have been over hyped a little this season, the gap between himself and Phoenix Tower was cut significantly in the Juddmonte and there has to be a serious question asked if Phoenix is a top clas sgroup 1 horse, I think he is but many don't. With the Duke no more than 2 - 3L better, the same question must be asked, is the Duke capable against the very best, to which my answer would be no, given Youmzain is one of the best.
 
chrisbeekracing said:
Sunday proved Youmzain yes, because it proved his King George running was all wrong, I actually don't think there is alot between Soldier Of Fortune and the Duke, although the former enjoys cut.

Ask and Its Gino, no not for me.

By me saying Sunday proved, means I think Youmzain proved his running in Saint Cloud and here last year was a better account of his ability than at Ascot where he failed to shine. It wouldn't be the first time he hasn't run his race at Ascot.

Whilst the Duke is better than his bare form on Sunday, I don't feel he is better than Youmzain on any of his form bar Ascot which I've totally discounted.

Before Ascot I thought Youmzain would hack up but he wasn't right and came back not himself, he also was never travelling that day.

If people are going to judge Youmzain on his 2008 King George run, good luck to them, as they will go skint next season. Judge him on his Saint Cloud and 2 L'Arc efforts and you see his real ability.

For me The Duke never answered the real question at Ascot, of would he stay in a top class 12f race, I think he looks a natural 10f horse who probably stays 12f but at the highest level will be found out over 12f, as he was on Sunday.

Over 12f I would back Youmzain to beat the Duke, over 10f The Duke would beat him, I just think the Duke's performances have been over hyped a little this season, the gap between himself and Phoenix Tower was cut significantly in the Juddmonte and there has to be a serious question asked if Phoenix is a top clas sgroup 1 horse, I think he is but many don't. With the Duke no more than 2 - 3L better, the same question must be asked, is the Duke capable against the very best, to which my answer would be no, given Youmzain is one of the best.
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So now you are using Phoenix Tower to have a go at DOM!? Come on...all Sunday proved was that Youmzain is a better horse with ease in the ground that DOM.
 
chrisbeekracing said:
If people are going to judge Youmzain on his 2008 King George run, good luck to them, as they will go skint next season. Judge him on his Saint Cloud and 2 L'Arc efforts and you see his real ability.
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Would it not be equally foolish to judge Duke of Marmalade on his Arc run?
 
No i used P T as one example, you love to take peoples words and mix them, your one of those people that can't accept other peoples opinions or reasonings and have your head so far up the Ballydoyle arse it's unbelievable.

I stated more than a couple of reason's, notably if you care to read, that I don't think Ascot showed a solid run from Youmzain and his overall profile is better than that of the Dukes.

I'm not saying I'm right, but my opinion is the duke is not as good as Youmzain, its clear you feel otherwise but instead of having a reasonable debate of why each other think, you use peoples wording to a way you want it to read, instead of reading what it says.

I would love to know reasoning of why you feel the Duke is better, surely even you can see Youmzain was nowhere near his best level of form at Ascot, or maybe you need to remove those Navy Blue tinted glasses that you wear.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Is Youmzain sticking around then Chris?
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Youmzain stays in training and will go to Dubai, then back for the same plan of action as this season, although connections may not go for the King George if it were to be fast ground.

I personally don't think that Duke Of Marmalade has run below his best form on Sunday, i just feel he didn't get the trip totally. What of his form amounts to anything. As everything he beats doesn't exactly stand up.

New Approach may have been 3rd behind him at Newmarket but the Derby form is very suspect and he struggled to beat inferrior rivals at Leopardstown.

I don't see much of DOM's form as strong, whilst Youmzain continues to defy his critics and still gets little to no praise whatsoever.
 
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trackside528 said:
Looking at the video on ATR BTW, it's fairly clear It's Gino was third.
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I wondered when this would come up. I was in the weighing room Sunday and Thulliez was going mad, he had a copy of the print in his hand and although Hills' back end made it fairly hard to see where It's Gino's nose finished, the rest of the head was well in front.

dim_6.jpg
 
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As far as I'm concerned, Chris (and as you have stated), Duke of Marmalade is a superior animal over 10 furlongs than Youmzain. Over 12 furlongs it's difficult to decipher, as Youmzain was below par at Ascot and Duke of Marmalade was below par at Longchamp.

In a strongly-run race over 12 furlongs, Youmzain might just shade it IMO, but, at their best, there would be nothing more than a couple of pounds between them.
 
Despite backing him for the Arc (which I now accept was folly - I backed Youmzain e/w antepost), I think none of the Duke's 6 performances this year show him to be a better horse than Youmzain, let alone any kind of superstar.

I wonder will Willoughby write an article about how DoM is not the best AOB has ever trained, nor possibly even in the top 10 (my opinion).
 
Not sure where 10F comes into the discussion - Youmzain hasn't run over that trip for almost 2 years, and never will again.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Good to hear Chris - btw I thought you were a big fan of Phoenix Tower?
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I love Phoenix Tower to bits and he is a great horse, but lets face it, he destroys Multidimensional at home who is not a group 1 horse.

He also has tried a few times and failed, he is an ideal 8 - 10f horse, over a mile some are too quick for him, over 10, the trip stretches him. There are no 9f group ones.

He is a good horse and capable of running to a respectable level of form in group 1 races against this current crop of 8 - 10f, but if he met Ravens Pass and Henrythenavigator, who are genuine group 1 milers, he would not get close, and as shown he isn't as good as Duke Of Marmalade whom I have reservations about. If Phoenix Tower wins the Champion, he has won his group one, but it would be noted as winning a soft group one.

He certainly won't go down in history as one of the great 10f group 1 winners.
 
Andrew Hurley said:
Not sure where 10F comes into the discussion - Youmzain hasn't run over that trip for almost 2 years, and never will again.
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Because arguably the Dukes best form is over 10f. Where as Youmzain excells in a strongly run 12f.

I suppose in a way its like comparing Michael Johnson to Usain Bolt, both are telented at their ideal trips i,e 400m and 100m but a running over each others trips there is always only going to be one result, the athlete over the right trip will win.

However that said I don't think the Duke has achived as much in his wins this season as Youmzain has in being 2nd in two strong L'Arcs.
 
Fair comment Chris - maybe they should send him over to the Prix d'Ispahan next year if they keep him in training.
 
If you are going to refer to Youmzain as "a better horse" than Duke of Marmalade, you have to consider all form shown by either horse (not necessarily when running against each other).
 
chrisbeekracing said:
I suppose in a way its like comparing Michael Johnson to Usain Bolt, both are telented at their ideal trips i,e 400m and 100m but a running over each others trips there is always only going to be one result, the athlete over the right trip will win.
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Well said sir.
 
I'd give DoM more chance of beating Youmzain over 12f than I would the reverse over 10f.
 
chrisbeekracing said:
I just think the Duke's performances have been over hyped a little this season, the gap between himself and Phoenix Tower was cut significantly in the Juddmonte and there has to be a serious question asked if Phoenix is a top clas sgroup 1 horse, I think he is but many don't. With the Duke no more than 2 - 3L better, the same question must be asked, is the Duke capable against the very best, to which my answer would be no, given Youmzain is one of the best.
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I don`t think the Juddmonte has much relevence in establishing the merit of DoM, he wasn`t at his best that day. His form in the Prince of Wales is probably the equal of Youmzain`s best. They are both 129 animals imo. It`s a similar story with Raven`s Pass and HTN. Phoenix Tower hasn`t had a hard season and we will see if he is a genuine Group 1 horse in the Champion Stakes where he will (hopefully) be up against two genuine G1 horses in New Approach and Archipenko. I`d be surprised if he`s up to beating them.
 
chrisbeekracing said:
However that said I don't think the Duke has achived as much in his wins this season as Youmzain has in being 2nd in two strong L'Arcs.
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Strongly agree with that.

Will Timeform revise their King george ratings? They really should, as they seem to give DoM/Papal Bull credit for finishing far in front of horses who clearly didn't run to anywhere near their form, but now the roles are reversed with Youmzain far ahead.

So, the hype did prevail with Duke of Marmalade - it sucked timeform into giving him the 132 rating for the KG, and alloting Papal Bull 131!

I said it at the time - it just looks even worse now.
 
The papers were keen to comment very few horses are placed in an L'Arc and go on to equal or better previous acievements.

Therefore they were stating claims why Youmzain wouldn't come 2nd or 1st this year. The fact he ran an equal race suggests he is against the norm and has improved, he also is a better racehorse than most come to accept.

One thing for me is certain, Youmzain is very very talented and should be appreciated.

As someone mentioned earlier the sprint division is poor, now credit to Marchand D'Or all you can do is win. Whilst Youmzain has only won once at the highest alcolade, he is consistently involved in top class races, suggesting he is easily one of the best of his generation. People seem to overlook that fact, the past 2 years have been strong 12f years and whilst next years may have gaps, if Youmzain were to go and mop up next season, he would surely have fully earned his right into racings Hall Of Fame as one of the greatest middle distance performers, he may be a door knocker at present but he is consistent and capable at a high level in multiple seasons, another good season should certainly see him up there among the best of his generation.
 
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