2008 Arc
- Thread starter Euronymous
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It's possible he has - not only is he the kind of horse to improve with age, as he's always shown, but he has had a very light campaign this year to prepare him for the race and was ready to the minute
Who knows what he might have done with a clear run? ... watching the re-run one can follow the various parties' tactics - inc successive horses keeping him in against the rail - he's a 'come frtom behind' horse who needs max cover so will always be liable to find trouble in running esp in such a big field
But the filly met trouble in running too, getting totally unbalanced at the start and then having to wait amongst horses in the pack.
I'm sorry people want to crab the race because they have always crabbed Youmzain and now can't admit that he's a top class horse. Both 1st and 2nd demand great respect
Harbinger
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Anyone who wants to crab the form doesn't need to worry about Youmzain when you've got a 100/1 shot in third...
Fact is, the race started off quick but slowed down for a good portion in the middle as Frankie pulled the field back off the pacemaker. This gave an advantage to the prominent horses as they came into the straight and a disadvantage to those further back - including the winner. No excuses for Youmzain or Soldier of Fortune; it's actually a pretty poor show that they were unable to shake off It's Gino.
All the credit goes to the winner; the rest... meh.
Fact is, the race started off quick but slowed down for a good portion in the middle as Frankie pulled the field back off the pacemaker. This gave an advantage to the prominent horses as they came into the straight and a disadvantage to those further back - including the winner. No excuses for Youmzain or Soldier of Fortune; it's actually a pretty poor show that they were unable to shake off It's Gino.
All the credit goes to the winner; the rest... meh.
That is the beauty about forums like this....otherwise we would be stuck with the press drooling all over the winner without questioning the form of the race as basically the press got the result they wanted.
But I do not want to take anything away from Zarkava...she is a tremendous filly, one of the best I have seen, second only to Bosra Sham.
But I do not want to take anything away from Zarkava...she is a tremendous filly, one of the best I have seen, second only to Bosra Sham.
Gamla Stan
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It seemed as anyone who wrote for the Racing Post wanted to see her get beat. They were all queueing up to oppose her and I think they actually would have quite liked to have got up this morning and said "told you so" had she finished midfield.
It's the first time I've been pretty disappointed with the RPs coverage of a race. Segal, Williams and Willoughby amongst others all wanted to take her on.
Also, Carson on the BBC apparently said that Youmzain was the best horse in the race before the off. What the fcuk?!
Gal is correct. Clare Balding too said she thought Zarkava would finish '5th' - she thought, as did I and many others that the task would be just too great, given the draw, the big field, the slightly too soft ground, the lack of experience against colts and older horses and all the rest of it
It doesn't mean those of us who doubted are disappointed with the result - quite the contrary
It doesn't mean those of us who doubted are disappointed with the result - quite the contrary
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Two Arc seconds and still under-appreciated. He`s as good as anything AOB has had this year and yet because of his connections not many will realise this.
The German horse in third does raise questions, but the front two both came from unpromising positions and deserve ratings a bit better than the bare form would indicate.
W always tend to underrate German horses! - Manduro should have taught us the folly of that. and the German filly who was disregarded in the betting shows how easy it is to leave them out of calculations. One poster on FF backed her btw, and Luis got her here. Shows the signs can be there is you look, esp for lightly raced horses. That was not a poor Arc field; quite the reverse I'd say
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Youmzain was trapped on the inside and went for a gap Hurricane Run like that unfortunately closed on him. He then had to go left before delivering his telling burst. If he`d been in SOF`s position (as usual with the Ballydoyle jockeys they always seem to have their mounts in the best possible place during a race) he`d have put daylight between himself and the third without winning. To crab Youmzain in anyway for his run yesterday - especially when I read crap on other threads about what a champion Marchand DoR is - that`s what I would call a pretty poor fucking show.
Harbinger
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It's Gino finished where he did thanks to a mixture of getting lucky with how the pace of the race panned out and an enterprising ride. Maybe he'll come out and prove me wrong, but the race just wasn't enough of a test to make the finishing positions all that representative.
BTW, interesting to note where the only runner from Montmartre's GP de Paris, Cima De Triomphe, finished up...
BTW, interesting to note where the only runner from Montmartre's GP de Paris, Cima De Triomphe, finished up...
Harbinger
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Regarding which one is a champion, there's a reason why Marchand d'Or doesn't need any excuses made for him...
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I respect your racing knowledge Gareth but your way off beam here. MDor is an admirable racehorse, but he`s not had to beat anything anywhere high class this year. The sprinting division is the laughing stock of racing, a division where exposed old handicappers can win Group 1 races.
Sheikh
At the Start
She won't
like the ground
get the trip
beat the older horses
beat the colts
be able to give away ground at the start
...
SHE DID and it was no surprise to see Soumillon throw away his whip, he's still never used it on her.
But I'd have kept the helmet
like the ground
get the trip
beat the older horses
beat the colts
be able to give away ground at the start
...
SHE DID and it was no surprise to see Soumillon throw away his whip, he's still never used it on her.
But I'd have kept the helmet
Harbinger
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Still can't get your head around Borderlescott, eh? Every single time he runs he makes a lie of his "handicapper" status.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I could buy that, until I remember that he couldn`t even win the Steward`s Cup on a nice weight carrying track.
Harbinger
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I see, so getting beaten a head and a half a length by two horses to whom he was giving 15lbs and 8lbs respectively is a negative against him 
In any case, he's clearly relished being dropped down to the minimum distance. His Nunthorpe win saw him take the scalps of, in order, a dual Group 1 winner in South Africa; last year's Nunthorpe winner, Abbaye second and this year's Golden Jubilee winner; this year's King's Stand winner; last year's Abbaye winner; and this year's Abbaye second. And of course he then went on to finish third in Sunday.
(Shit, why are we talking about 5f sprinters in the Arc thread?!?)
In any case, he's clearly relished being dropped down to the minimum distance. His Nunthorpe win saw him take the scalps of, in order, a dual Group 1 winner in South Africa; last year's Nunthorpe winner, Abbaye second and this year's Golden Jubilee winner; this year's King's Stand winner; last year's Abbaye winner; and this year's Abbaye second. And of course he then went on to finish third in Sunday.
(Shit, why are we talking about 5f sprinters in the Arc thread?!?)
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Because of the perception that Youmzain is a loser, whereas in reality he plies his trade at the sharp end. The 12F division is the cream of flat racing and second`s in two Arc`s and a King George is worth some sort of recognition. Who is the better football team, Spurs because they won the Carling Cup and had a bit of silverware or Chelsea who were runners-up in the Champions League and Premiership?
Harbinger
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I've given him as much recognition as anyone over the years, but Sunday told us nothing new about him - it just rammed home the point that he's very hard to win with.
I'd rather reserve my praise for the first European sprinter since Dayjur to win three Group 1s in the same season.
I'd rather reserve my praise for the first European sprinter since Dayjur to win three Group 1s in the same season.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Fair enough. The validity or otherwise of these Group 1 sprints is something we`re not going to agree on, and this thread isn`t where they should be discussed anyhow. I`d just point out that it took an exceptional filly to best Youmzain on sunday and leave it at that.
Comparing Youmzain to Tottenham is like comparing Broadband to Dial Up.
Channon came up with a cracker, people don't rate Youmzain and always crab him, but nearly £2,000,000 in prize money doesn't lie and he is a group 1 winner, and has been placed in 3 Championship races.
Anyone would think he is a lucky handicapper, anyone who knows the horse knows Ascot wasn't his race and he is miles better than that, he proved on Sunday he is better than Duke Of Marmalade, but of course everyone knows the Duke wasn't right, yeh right. If Youmzain would have won, no one would have given him credit, just said he was lucky and all that crap.
He is possibly the second best middle distance horse in Europe and in the top 10 in the world.
Next year he'll win at least 2 grade 1's and a Championship race and I would happily stake money on that. If people don't like him because of who trains him thats fine, say he hasn't done as much as he could because of his trainer, but to crab the horses form when its there in black and white is just lunacy.
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I Ask better than DOM as well Chris? Is the 100/1 shot better than DOM as well Chris? Simple questions to answer...
I honestly feel Youmzain is better than the Duke. I personally don't think Youmzain was within a mile of his best ability at Ascot and think if he raced against Duke over 1m 4f he would beat him 9 times out of ten.
I think the German horse was flattered an an extent of being in the right place and that, he probably wouldn't be better than the Duke, but if he could prove that run wasn't a fluke he shouldn't be underestimated, on all previously known form the answer is no, it just depends if he proves that run was a fluke or not.
I'm sure if you asked any Ballydoyle rep they would rate DT a bit higher than DOM and I think Youmzain is somewhere in between, close to the former than the latter. That said I think Youmzain could be the best 12f horse in training next season if the mare is retired, but myself I think he would be better over 2m, however that will devalue him.
I think the German horse was flattered an an extent of being in the right place and that, he probably wouldn't be better than the Duke, but if he could prove that run wasn't a fluke he shouldn't be underestimated, on all previously known form the answer is no, it just depends if he proves that run was a fluke or not.
I'm sure if you asked any Ballydoyle rep they would rate DT a bit higher than DOM and I think Youmzain is somewhere in between, close to the former than the latter. That said I think Youmzain could be the best 12f horse in training next season if the mare is retired, but myself I think he would be better over 2m, however that will devalue him.
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