2009 Arc.

Hamm said:
Besides Masterofthehorse, who do Ballydoyle have for the Leger? Age of Acquarius, Freemantle and Black Bear Island are not good enough on all known evidence, and I don't think Golden Sword will stay.
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They'll have a double handful they will be thinking about by Sadler's Wells, Galileo, Montjeu, etc. Other yards don't have this sort of strength in depth in the staying ranks. Some of these are yet to be fully shown off.
 
Hamm said:
Besides Masterofthehorse, who do Ballydoyle have for the Leger? Age of Acquarius, Freemantle and Black Bear Island are not good enough on all known evidence, and I don't think Golden Sword will stay.
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Thought Yankee Doodle has shaped like a Leger type on his last two runs.

Absolutely no reason to run Fame And Glory in the St. Leger - we can debate why/how unfair it is that the Doncaster contest has come to be seen in a negative perspective in terms of stallion prospects all day, but that's just the way it is.
 
Hamm said:
Besides Masterofthehorse, who do Ballydoyle have for the Leger? Age of Acquarius, Freemantle and Black Bear Island are not good enough on all known evidence, and I don't think Golden Sword will stay.
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Masterofthehorse surely won't go for that? Think he barely stays a decent run 12f in top company.
 
Bear in mind in the St Leger they only need to stay in relative terms – i.e. against the field that turns up. In renewals that don’t have particularly noteworthy staying types it takes less stamina aptitude than at other times.
 
SteveM said:
Bear in mind in the St Leger they only need to stay in relative terms – i.e. against the field that turns up. In renewals that don’t have particularly noteworthy staying types it takes less stamina aptitude than at other times.
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Understand that but I don't think you get many Leger winners who you wouldn't class as stayers. Bar Rule Of Law (who got an amazing front running ride) and possibly Lucarno theres been very few in the past couple of decades.
 
jairducochetfan said:
Understand that but I don't think you get many Leger winners who you wouldn't class as stayers. Bar Rule Of Law (who got an amazing front running ride) and possibly Lucarno theres been very few in the past couple of decades.
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Quite often those that have the stamina haven't the class, which leaves them vulnerable to those that don't thoroughly stay but are classier middle distance types.

Fame (like Reference Point) for example has class and stamina so should be a shoo in were he to take part.
 
SteveM said:
Quite often those that have the stamina haven't the class, which leaves them vulnerable to those that don't thoroughly stay but are classier middle distance types.

Fame (like Reference Point) for example has class and stamina so should be a shoo in were he to take part.
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Yeah we're on the same page here, I just don't feel Masterofthehorse would be a good enough horse to overcome stamina doubts in a Leger, especially given I have my doubts over his ability to run through the pain barrier which he will certainly have to do in the final two furlongs of a Leger, possibly against tough, front running Johnston types.
 
You may well be right... Johnston after all had the Queen's Vase winner (again). However, Masterofthehorse may not have shown his running in the Irish Derby and should stay a great deal better than it may appear (by Sadler’s Wells out of a Shirley Heights mare).
 
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SteveM said:
You may well be right... Johnston after all had the Queen's Vase winner (again). However, Masterofthehorse may not have shown his running in the Irish Derby and should stay a great deal better than it may appear.
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I'll bear that in mind, the fact he took part in the RP Trophy suggests he was possibly expected too, and I suppose many horses do struggle the first time they are asked to run in a strongly run race. I'd like to see him in the Voltigeur.
 
Changingoftheguard might be another one, similar profile to Honolulu. Could see him going to the Ebor first as well.
 
The likes of Honolulu and Queen's Vases winners will always be too slow for me to win a Leger. Recent winners of a Leger have shown the ability to win Group 1/2s over 1m4, such as Scorpion, Lucarno and Conduit. Sixties Icon would have been solid over 1m4 at G2/3 level. I look at this and think it's possible to rule out the slower, staying types, and look for a classy horse who may well stay.
 
They have Yankee Dodle and Golden Sword for the Leger



the Irish Derby is the ideal trial for the arc:

Suave Dancer
Dalakhani
Sinndar
Hurricane Run
Montjeu
 
I think the GP de Paris is the best trial now, but the Irish Derby before the jockey club reduced its distance was up there.
 
Galileo said:
Fame And Glory will not run in the Leger. I doubt he will even be entered.
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I'd be very surprised if he's not left in until the last minute and would have thought he has a slim but distinct chance of lining up.

This from the PA:
O'Brien said: "We are going to give Fame And Glory a little break and then bring him back for the autumn, when the plan will be to run in the Irish Champion Stakes and the Arc."

I suppose it's possible he could face STS up to twice more in that case.

O'Brien added: "We are looking at the King George for either Yeats or Golden Sword, while Mastercraftsman is a possible for the Juddmonte International."
 
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Yeats..KG :lol:

another example of trying to make a stayer look quicker than he is..laughable in the extreme

I like AOB..but these decisions look like a schoolboy has made them

does this stuff just look silly only to me?
 
It would be a pretty boring sport if stayers never dropped down in trip and milers never stepped up in trip. And it's not like Aidan O'Brien hasn't done it succesfully in the past...
 
I was more in favour at a shot at the Arc because stayers have a decent record in that. If they can get a prominent spot in a strongly run 12f affair they can take a bit of catching. The Arc is more likely to be run at a strong pace than the King George, but fast ground, Ascot and the summer in general would suit Yeats so I can see why they're looking at that.

On another note, I do think it's great that opinion of Aidan O'Brien/Ballydoyle/Coolmore has come full circle and that they're now criticised for:

a) not being conservative with the campaigning of their horses
b) not buying up all the best stock and refusing the let them race each other
c) not wrapping their horses up in cotton wool and showing a willingness to expose them to conditions which may be less than ideal in order to find out more about them
 
Yes, but I suppose the point is that when we hear "yeats has the speed for a July cup" or whatever...and then we never see that (thank god), the sense is thats its all a bit of puff...

Like the F&G 10 f thing. We shall see if he ever runs over that distance....have my doubts
 
Gareth

I don't single AOB out..theres more than him obsessed with speed..and there is difference between a horse needing a really strong run 12f race..being dropped to 10 than one that doesn't require others weakening back to him..F&G displayed to everyone on Sunday that he requires an over strong pace race at 12..he is so not going to want going back to 10f.

Motivator was another who relished strong 12f pace and got found wanting at 10

one thing AOB does have in his favour is the animals to set races up for whatever pace he wants..and owners that don't mind losing Derbys when he is wrong....no one has used pace like he has before

even with the tools AOB has i don't see him shaping a 10f race to suit F&G or for Yeats in a 12f race like the KG
 
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