2009 Arc.

Ardross, I think, was placed in a King George and then an Arc. Emulating that outcome would increase Yeats's appeal to breeders, even NH ones.

Fame certainly has speed and stamina, but I agree with whoever said things don't happen quickly for him. The best 10f target for him might be the Champion Stakes up the long straight at Newmarket. Leopardstown and the Arc require tactical speed, something he didn't show much of on Sunday. Murtagh was shovelling on the coal coming into the straight and ittook a while for him to respond. Once he got going he won convincingly, but against better opposition he could find himself too far behind.
 
EC1 said:
Yeats..KG :lol:

another example of trying to make a stayer look quicker than he is..laughable in the extreme

I like AOB..but these decisions look like a schoolboy has made them

does this stuff just look silly only to me?
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He is a Coronation Cup winner and in the mould of a horse like Westerner. A bit long in the tooth now I'd agree (although he's not showing too many signs of diminishing yet), but a plausible entry surely given his liking for Ascot.
 
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Galileo said:
O'Brien has confirmed Fame And Glory has not been entered for the Leger.
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Has he? I'm surprised. Thanks, I missed today's paper. The announcement yesterday said he'd be given a break with his main targets to include the Irish Champion and the Arc (as expected). It's unlike Ballydoyle not to keep its options open.
 
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SteveM said:
He is a Coronation Cup winner and in the mould of a horse like Westerner. A bit long in the tooth now I'd agree (although he's not showing too many signs of diminishing yet), but a plausible entry surely given his liking for Ascot.
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bloomin heck Steve..how long ago was he a 12f horse?

horses get conditioned to the distances they are trained for..do you really think Yeats is a 12f horse now?

ii would be like going back to a horse's 2yo form and saying..well I know he wins over 10f now but he did win at 6f at 2.

Its not a convincing argument imo

if they want to waste their money..no problem...i'm sure they have plenty..but not much sense to go with it in respect to this.
 
did he win though? Ardross..did he win?

I thought horses were put in races to win tbh..I'm sure I must be out of kilter with many people because imo horses are there to win with..not run placings.

Yes every now and then a stayer runs well in a 12f race..how many odd examples do you think will prove anything?....running well and winning are two totally different things to me...yes every now and then horses win at 10f & 12f...many many fail though.

here is where I lose the plot with things..I have a horse who is superb at 12f..needs every yard..ie strong run race....so I twat about with it at 10f..getting placed ..in the process miss out on 12f races the horse would win.

when my horse goes to stud his record looks like this 1122222222...instead of...11111111111.

Now I might be wrong here..but I'm favouring the second formline...is this too logical?

some horses are obvious for a switch in trips...I agree..but some are not as versatile..and you can see by their run styles if a drop in trip is going to suit etc....just nilly willy dropping horses without any consideration to whether they will be suited just seems clueless to me.
 
It's quite likely that being placed in an Arc or King George would be worth more to Yeats's stud value than winning any of the remaining races this season that he might actually win.
 
EC, I could maybe sympathise with your point of view more if it wasn't for the fact that you're reacting to what is actually a very small minority of horses.

The fact is that the vast majority of horses are campaigned as you like to see it: with no imagination, no real interest in testing the limits of what they are capable of, and with fear of failure over-riding the potential upsides.

For most connections, this is an understandable economic necessity - it's hard to be adventurous, to try something new, when the bills need paying.

For the small group of owners and trainers lucky enough to not have to worry too much about such things, a bit of adventure can only be good for the sport, the breed, and our enjoyment and understanding of both.
 
Totally agree Gareth and for the most part O'Brien doesn't really duck out, and has kept horses in training that I'm sure others wouldn't have, and taken in more races (often racing them unnecessarily you might say) against each other. Contrast Coolmore's position with that of say the Aga Khan.
 
The Aga Khan let Alamshar and Dalakhani take each other on in the Irish Derby. Had he not done so there would have been no race to speak of that year.
 
Alamshar was "just" a Derby third at that point, not really a superstar. And they did not both go to the Arc.
 
I remember him saying that he was not going to run Zarkava in the Arc until that good colt of his (name escapes me) got injured.
 
I'll leave it to Betsmate to say what he thinks of you forgetting that horse's name :)
 
HughC said:
Alamshar was "just" a Derby third at that point, not really a superstar. And they did not both go to the Arc.
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I am of the firm opinion that Alamshar would have won that Derby if connections had believed more in his stamina. Even Oxx said as much later on, so i think all were well aware that they were running 2 very, very good horses against each other that day.
 
What do all make of Cavalryman for the Arc after last night? I have a little on between 30 and 42.

I'm struggling to see a big angle on this year's Arc at current prices. FAG backers at 12 have got a very good bet, and it's hard to separate Sariska and Staecilita, and you would hope a filly would have a relatively easy race in the Vermeille if she is less than 10 for the Arc at this stage.

I think Spanish Moon at 70 represents a worthwhile small investment, as Khalid Abdullah doesn't seem to have anything else for the Arc as yet (& is unlikely to do so), and the horse has clearly improved dramatically this year.
 
I think that's a decent shout about Spanish Moon (edit: at least in terms of a trading position). If he'd gone in the stalls at Newmarket, won there, gone on to win the Coronation Cup and followed up at Saint-Cloud - all fairly realistic prospects IMO - I think I'd be backing him for the King Stoute next week.
 
Hamm said:
What do all make of Cavalryman for the Arc after last night? I have a little on between 30 and 42.

I'm struggling to see a big angle on this year's Arc at current prices. FAG backers at 12 have got a very good bet, and it's hard to separate Sariska and Staecilita, and you would hope a filly would have a relatively easy race in the Vermeille if she is less than 10 for the Arc at this stage.

I think Spanish Moon at 70 represents a worthwhile small investment, as Khalid Abdullah doesn't seem to have anything else for the Arc as yet (& is unlikely to do so), and the horse has clearly improved dramatically this year.
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I've got a pretty clear idea of the Arc in my head at the moment, which largely coincides with the way you are thinking.

Fame (I've got 14s, 12s and 6s) to beat Sariska, followed by a bit of a gap, then Spanish Moon and the likes of Cavalryman (if supplemented) running for a place.
 
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I think the biggest danger to Fame and Glory is running in the Irish Champion Stakes. He'll be taken off his feet, and will have a hard race, which would be far from ideal in terms of preparing for the Arc. Surley Coolmore could see Mastercraftsman is their ideal type for this, if the ground is no faster than good?
 
Hamm said:
I think the biggest danger to Fame and Glory is running in the Irish Champion Stakes. He'll be taken off his feet, and will have a hard race, which would be far from ideal in terms of preparing for the Arc. Surley Coolmore could see Mastercraftsman is their ideal type for this, if the ground is no faster than good?
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Possibly, I suppose their plans are flexible and will be influenced by how Rip van Winkle gets on in the Sussex Stakes and how Mastercraftsman goes at York.
 
Hamm said:
I think the biggest danger to Fame and Glory is running in the Irish Champion Stakes. He'll be taken off his feet, and will have a hard race, which would be far from ideal in terms of preparing for the Arc. Surley Coolmore could see Mastercraftsman is their ideal type for this, if the ground is no faster than good?
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If he gets going on the soft side of good he should go very close in the Irish Champion whoever turns up and I don't see this as ruining his Arc chances in the least. I can't be the only one to see the gears that Fame has got. The secret with him is a fast pace. People called Sinndar a plodder Fame reminds me of him. While he hasn't got brilliant acceleration like Dancing Brave or his own sire Montjeu, he shows great gears when galloping off a fast pace.
 
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