2009 Arc.

The fly in the ointment and the older horse that could prove the biggest danger is shouldering a Group 1 penalty in Ireland tomorrow. Weld says he will need the run. However, the Arc has always been in his sights and I'm interested (not necessarily tomorrow, although he should nevertheless win).

I expect Casual Conquest to go very well in the Arc. I can't see any of the others causing Fame much bother, so this is the one who may put it up to him.
 
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He is a ten furlong horses in my opinion Steve.

Strong top-line stamina influences passed down via Nijinsky-Niniski-Hernando (Niniski is a prepotent classic/professional split). Also worth mentioning that he was placed in two classics –the Derby and the Irish Derby – at a mile-and-a-half and he's won his Group 1 at a bit beyond 10 furlongs (on heavy).
 
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I wouldn't worry too much about Casual Conquest at 12f. I'd worry about him being good enough. He didn't really go on after the Derby, did he?
 
I wouldn't worry too much about Casual Conquest at 12f. I'd worry about him being good enough. He didn't really go on after the Derby, did he?

...runner-up in the Irish Derby wasn't too shabby. He's never finished out of the frame and won his Group 1 last time out.
 
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He was 119 going into Epsom. You could make a case for him being 122 there but subsequent form of others doesn't really hold up. He was 119 next time in the Irish Derby. This season, he was involved in that farcical race (but the form has worked out well, though short of 119) at Newmarket before taking the TGC from some disappointing sorts, for which I have him on 117.

As with the King George, I couldn't seriously consider anything for the Arc that I didn't think could hit 126 (123 for fillies) on my figures so he'd be a big outsider at this stage. If they could get him back to his very best and then find some improvement, he'd come back into the picture but not until then.
 
That’s all well and good but these ratings clearly underestimate the quality of this fine, relatively unexposed, colt. He’s a Group 1 winner that has also been placed in two classics and the horse he beat last time has gone on to win twice. The best is also yet to come from him and he has been handled patiently to get him to fulfil his potential at the right time.

He’ll shake the cobwebs off tonight and be a force to be reckoned with in the autumn. He'll certainly be able to run into the mid 120s.
 
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Even allowing for the Group 1 penalty, Casual Conquest's performance in the Meld was disappointing and well short of what would be necessary to be in the shake up in the Arc.
 
agree. had arguments with hubby who fancied beach bunny, but just being able to fend that one off and getting beat by shes our mark etc. is certainly no arc-form whatsoever, not that I did fancy him in any way for that.
 
I usually have a decent idea by this stage who i want to back in the Arc but was struggling a little this year, so have been giving the race a little more thought this week.

I've already backed Spanish Moon at 100 and Cavalryman at 34, and think both are still improving and were too high in the betting, and though not obvious winners, I think they go there with a chance, and worth an investment at those odds (Cavalryman now shorter, but Spanish Moon still available at similar odds).

Of the more fancied runners, I'm not convinced by Staecilita and Sariska, and think both fillies may be a little overrated (the former by the form of the Prix de Diane not being inspiring, and the latter by running through a bog and beating a pacemaker), and you would hope an Arc winner would be better than those two. As admirable a horse as Conduit is, he seems to be a very good 1m4 horse who will win Group 1s, though not necessarily against the better Group 1 horses. I don't think Vision D'Etat truly stays a mile and a half - Champion Stakes at Newmarket would be the ideal race for him.

This leaves me with 2 horses - firstly, Youmzain! No derision please, but he is a dual runner up (should have been made an Arc winner in 2007 if the Stewards hadn't bottled it), the course and pace usually associated with an Arc plainly suit, and I don't think there is anywhere near the strength in depth this year as in previous years. He hasn't been at his best this year, but I think missing the King George will greatly improve his chances and at circa 50 on BF, he is certainly worth betting on.

The final one is Fame and Glory. I haven't been as convinced by him as early as others, and don't quite view him in the league of Irish Derby & Arc winners such as Sinndar, but nevertheless, in a year such as this, he is a deserving favourite. I can't see any of the other market leaders getting within a couple of lengths of him, and think the near 9/2 on Betfair is more than fair. The worry with him, and the reason i haven't bet as yet, is to attempt to understand the effect a run in a potentially top class renewal of the Irish Champion Stakes could have on him. For now, we are assuming this will be against Sea the Stars, but should we be? I would bet on the ground not being suitable for Sea the Stars if anything, and there must be a reasonable chance STS will not run, thereby allowing Fame and Glory a relatively easy race (to his ability; I can't see other challengers who'll give him a ridiculously hard race (AOB won't run Mastercraftsman against him if there is no STS)), and a perfect Arc warm-up.
 
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Pretty much agree with you there Hamm. Spanish Moon and Cavalryman are vastly overpriced, I'd rather have Spanish Moon than Youmzain myself at the likely prices. Other big prices are Age Of Aquarius (liked him in the GPdP and although he's an unlikely attendee, if he ran well in the Leger, they'd surely take the punt) and Buena Vista, the Japanese super filly, again very unlikely runner but if she turned up, I'd be confident of trading out a three figure price!

Stacellita has a decent chance in my eyes but she's a false price because of the Zarkava effect, she pummelled the Diane so easily and in such a good time, I think she'll have more improvement in her too. She'd be 12/1 plus if Zarkava hadn't won last year. I think she's ahead of Sariska though, she's beat the same horses in weak renewals and was incredibly incredibly flattered at the Curragh.

Fame and Glory a worthy favourite overall though.
 
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I felt after the Diane with 12s burning a hole in my parket about F&G that if I took some 7s on Stacelita i'd have the race pretty much covered. Nothing has changed that view.
 
I felt after the Diane with 12s burning a hole in my parket about F&G that if I took some 7s on Stacelita i'd have the race pretty much covered. Nothing has changed that view.

I prefer Sariska to the French filly. Spanish Moon and Cavalryman are live outsiders, but I see no need whatsoever to dilute my very confident position in Fame (14s, 12s and 6s). I might even go in again for Fame on the day rather than hedge. Something would have to come out of the woodwork and be deeply impressive for me to dilute.
 
Sariska's form just doesn't do anything for me, Steve. Don't let the visual impression at the Curragh disguise the fact that I could have carried you and beaten that field with one leg tied up my back.
 
My only bet so far is on the Vermeille winner Alpine Rose. Stacelita is possibly the biggest danger in both races.
 
Sariska's form just doesn't do anything for me, Steve. Don't let the visual impression at the Curragh disguise the fact that I could have carried you and beaten that field with one leg tied up my back.

I don’t expect her to get to Fame, but I prefer her to the French filly (Sariska is better than her form).

As for the other… Desert Orchid the horse maybe… Desert Orchid the savant, not a chance this side of the Apocalypse!
 
The most likely scenario for STS’s participation in the Arc imo is if he beats Fame well in Ireland, or if Fame suffers a setback and is unable to take part.
I don’t expect that to happen. I expect Fame to either beat STS in Ireland, or STS to edge out Flame in a thriller. Either way Oxx wouldn’t want to take on Fame at 12 furlongs following Ireland. Perhaps the BC Classic or the Champion Stakes at Newmarket are better late-season targets for him, should he get that far after a busy first half.


 
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Fame and Glory has no chance of beating Sea the Stars at Leopardstown, unless something went wrong with Sea the Stars. He needs a fast paced 1m4, and anything shorter than this will be insufficient. If, for example, Rip Van Winkle were to run in this race (i realise he won't), I would expect Sea the Stars to finish a length/length and a half ahead of Rip, with Fame and Glory 2 - 3 lengths further back. He would also be susceptible to a top class 1m2 colt for the final place, but I'm struggling to think of any others.
 
Fame and Glory has no chance of beating Sea the Stars at Leopardstown, unless something went wrong with Sea the Stars. He needs a fast paced 1m4, and anything shorter than this will be insufficient. If, for example, Rip Van Winkle were to run in this race (i realise he won't), I would expect Sea the Stars to finish a length/length and a half ahead of Rip, with Fame and Glory 2 - 3 lengths further back. He would also be susceptible to a top class 1m2 colt for the final place, but I'm struggling to think of any others.

I'm loving the prospect... Fame is likely to be second favourite I'd say and I believe this will represent the value of the season win, lose or draw.

I have rarely seen a middle distance performer of the ability and potential of Fame And Glory. Stepping back in trip will barely inconvenience him (I believe). His gear changes are breathtaking off a strong pace and incredibly many seem to have missed this.
 
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I only hope more people think Fame and Glory has a chance over 1m2 on good or faster ground, as it will be Christmas come early for Sea the Stars fans! :D
 
I only hope more people think Fame and Glory has a chance over 1m2 on good or faster ground, as it will be Christmas come early for Sea the Stars fans! :D

I seriously believe that Fame And Glory is the best hope of any horse in training of lowering STS's colours. Clearly a bit of cut at 12 furlongs would be ideal for Fame, but he's going to prove difficult to beat at 10 furlongs on good.

Mastercraftsman has a squeak at York, but only a squeak.
 
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His gear changes are breathtaking off a strong pace and incredibly many seem to have missed this.

In my dark moments I wish I had. The amount I lost on him in the Derby is the difference right now between a profit and a loss this season. Fortunately I espect some sort of return before the end of the season.
 
In my dark moments I wish I had. The amount I lost on him in the Derby is the difference right now between a profit and a loss this season. Fortunately I espect some sort of return before the end of the season.

I think you are entitled to. This colt is brimming with ability, the like I have rarely seen. The Derby leaves a sour taste. Had he been ridden properly I simply don’t know which one would have won and I’m sure Fame has come on from Epsom as much if not more than STS. I can see nothing getting near to him (bar STS). STS would be favoured on good/firm at 10 furlongs, but on any other terms at any middle-distance to staying trip (10 furlongs and above) I’m with Fame and only Fame.
 
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Steve,

If Fame and Glory has so much speed, what happened to him in the Derby? To repeat a point EC made on another thread, he needs 1m4 and a fast pace to be at his best. People have called the Derby a 10f race, and Fame and Glory was really found wanting, and there is nothing to suggest he can bridge this gap.

Your confidence is admirable, and I hope we see a rematch, but fear the weather could scupper it. It would be a truly fantastic race for racing, and I'd love it even more if it could be in the Arc :)
 
Steve,

If Fame and Glory has so much speed, what happened to him in the Derby? To repeat a point EC made on another thread, he needs 1m4 and a fast pace to be at his best. People have called the Derby a 10f race, and Fame and Glory was really found wanting, and there is nothing to suggest he can bridge this gap.

Your confidence is admirable, and I hope we see a rematch, but fear the weather could scupper it. It would be a truly fantastic race for racing, and I'd love it even more if it could be in the Arc :)

All this calling for a rematch of STS and Fame And Glory now....yet STS was wasting his time according to some taking FAG on a month or so ago in the Irish Derby! Now it would be "truely fantastic race for racing" :ninja:
 
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