2019 Grand National

Tiger Roll owes an awful lot of his success/rejuvenation to Lisa O'Neill imo.
Winning the Munster National when , as a novice looking like another burnt out Triumph hurdle winner destined for summer chases /small fields ridden by her was the beginning.
I remember the 4 mile chase the following March when he looked to be barely climbing over the fences but kept doing so, from the front.
Last year's X Country win came after a lot of schooling in January over the course after an indifferent enough debut over the course.
All about confidence, he found a way to negotiate the fences and kept improving.
Lisa came to ride these horses, it has been suggested , because giggi had written to amateur jockeys informing them that they would only be paid a flat fee for winning p2ps , bumpers etc but no fee if defeated as befits their amateur status.
Then the seasoned amateurs more or less bycotted Giggi while Lisa, on the Elliot payroll already as secretary got the chance to shine and took it.
l wonder if that alleged letter had never been written would we ever have heard of Tiger Roll, four time Cheltenham Festival and dual GN winner.
Breeder Gerry o'Brien's life story is filled with numerous twists and turns from one the most sought after vets to near recluse to breeder of the century( so far).
His talents are too great to be kept hidden.
Davy I wrote about previously , on his own in the early morning fog Cheltenham week 2014 before the sun came out and he first teamed up with Tiger Roll on an unbelievable Gold Cup day.
I do hope An Capall retires from his day job soon enough to write the definitive account of Tiger Roll and whose lives were changed on the way.
I am glad to say i witnessed lots of it first hand starting with Authorized's 2007 Derby win.

Edit; I am not trying to write Keith Donoghue or Donogh Meyler out of the story ; indeed they add especially keith whose story is also full of surprises.
 
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It's official! Tiger Roll is the best Grand National winner in at least 46 years

From the RP:

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...d-national-winner-in-at-least-46-years/375106

I'll be coming up with some figures today or tomorrow but I wouldn't argue too much with a mark around 172-174. I might have a word with the brothers as I'm sure one of them has the Chaseform Annuals for the mid-70s to see what Timeform said about Red Rum and his achievements but I do think just failing to concede lumps of weight to L'Escargot might have been better than 174. I'm not sure what year my own Form Book annuals start but they're up the loft so I might get a chance this week to climb up there and have a wee shufti.
 
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If he were to run in and win, which is unlikely IMO, the Gold Cup then he'll forever be remembered as an incredible horse by everybody who follows racing as a dual Grand National + Gold Cup winner who was also versatile enough to win at five different festivals (four different races) but if, as would seem probable, he left his third National behind at Cheltenham in doing so then he'd be remembered by the non racing public as dual grand national winner Tiger Roll - and truth be told probably be forgotten about by most within ten years. Even if he won the Gold Cup it would mean little to all bar racing fans and casual observers - front page news for a day. Racing fans will of course always view him with huge affection regardless for what he has done thus far.

As a triple Grand National winner he would undoubtedly leave his mark as the once in a lifetime horse his achievements merit. I understand why they would want to protect him by not chancing it a third time, which is perfectly understandable but aside from safety and welfare concerns then I see no reason why they wouldn't follow the same end of season path next year. And a third Cross Country would also qualify as a fifth festival race (to most at least !).
 
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Desert Orchid said:
It's official! Tiger Roll is the best Grand National winner in at least 46 years

From the RP:

https://www.racingpost.com/news/lat...d-national-winner-in-at-least-46-years/375106

I'll be coming up with some figures today or tomorrow but I wouldn't argue too much with a mark around 172-174. I might have a word with the brothers as I'm sure one of them has the Chaseform Annuals for the mid-70s to see what Timeform said about Red Rum and his achievements but I do think just failing to concede lumps of weight to L'Escargot might have been better than 174. I'm not sure what year my own Form Book annuals start but they're up the loft so I might get a chance this week to climb up there and have a wee shufti.
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When you say just failed, it was a 20l hard held winner. I dont know the collatoral form of that year and why the turnaround from the previous year with L'escargot, but Ive not seen a more impressive national winner on video. I've never seen any jockey look so contemptuously at the opposition as Tommy Carberry did coming down to the second last.
 
I would think, based on the last 7 years ( the fatality this year in the GN being the first for 7 years), that the CC at Cheltenham is a far more dangerous race based on instances of fatalities during that race in the last 7 years? My personal perception is that I would rather run a horse in the GN than in the CC in Cheltenham. I can't see in all honesty how they can't go for a third. He clearly loves Aintree/4m plus. Okay he pecked a bit a couple of times, but Davey Russell says he only skims over the top of the fences (he's small and conserving energy - Tiger that is not Davey :) ) but he was never in any trouble all the way round, and he'll only be 10.
 
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HawkWing said:
When you say just failed, it was a 20l hard held winner. I dont know the collatoral form of that year and why the turnaround from the previous year with L'escargot, but Ive not seen a more impressive national winner on video. I've never seen any jockey look so contemptuously at the opposition as Tommy Carberry did coming down to the second last.
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L'Escargo was a gold cup winner but couldn't beat red rum until red rum gave him 12lb.rummy carried 12st L'escargo 11-2.
 
Outsider said:
L'Escargo was a gold cup winner but couldn't beat red rum until red rum gave him 12lb.rummy carried 12st L'escargo 11-2.
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L'escargot was a dual Gold Cup winner, a supreme winner, 5th in the champion hurdle, and according to Peter O'Sullevan said L'Escargot carried 11-3 on that day. O'Sullevan is so often terrible in these old videos, I dont know when he went downhill from his supposed peak of commentating skills, that I'll take your word for it. That said, he laughed at Red Rum that day - who would have beaten Hennessey winner Spanish Steps and Gold Cup winner The Dikler had 12yo L'Escargot missed the race for some reason. I'm not denegrating Red Rum's achievements, I'm not sure why his performance has to be forgotten when talking about Red Rum being the greatest, not to mention Crisp.
 
You have to factor in the changes to the course since 1987.
In the old days the GN was handicapped as a stand alone race, with Red Rum , in the words of Tommy Carberry having two or three extra legs when jumping around there " you could tie his legs together and he still would not fall !
In stature, flat pedigrees and Aintree connections in previous trainers (Nigel Hawke for TR; Tim Molony, Bobby Renton in RR's case) and early careers the horses have a lot of similarities; let us not spoil it by getting hung up on ratings.
L'Escargot had not won a race in three years before his GN win
 
edgt said:
You have to factor in the changes to the course since 1987.
In the old days the GN was handicapped as a stand alone race, with Red Rum , in the words of Tommy Carberry having two or three extra legs when jumping around there " you could tie his legs together and he still would not fall !
In stature, flat pedigrees and Aintree connections in previous trainers (Nigel Hawke for TR; Tim Molony, Bobby Renton in RR's case) and early careers the horses have a lot of similarities; let us not spoil it by getting hung up on ratings.
L'Escargot had not won a race in three years before his GN win
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Watched in on youtube again there, and it continued automatically on to Foinavon. What was notable was just how many DIDNT brush through the top with many fences, including Bechers, looking untouched on the second circuit. Also notable was just how all horses cleared the fences, and a finally notable was that there was still 25+ horses coming to the Chair - not a bloodbath by any manner or means. Current version isn't a first cousin of this race, for good or ill.
 
As I've mentioned more than once, my methods differ a bit from RPRs (and, presumably, ORs) and my overall scale is probably about 5lbs higher, especially for handicappers, than RPRs.

I'm arriving at a rating of 174 for Tiger Roll, which I'd normally expect to correspond to about 169 on ORs/RPRs.

I can't see him being asked to defy probably 167/11-10 next year when he could be asked to give 28lbs to something possibly only a stone inferior although in fairness that possible rival is probably still plying his trade in novice races at the moment. I can't see anything that ran on Saturday having any chance or reversing the form bar maybe Pleasant Company getting lowered a fair bit in the weights, which I don't really see happening. I suppose Rathvinden is lightly-enough raced to improve again into next season and if he settles better he could be one.
 
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HawkWing said:
L'escargot was a dual Gold Cup winner, a supreme winner, 5th in the champion hurdle, and according to Peter O'Sullevan said L'Escargot carried 11-3 on that day. O'Sullevan is so often terrible in these old videos, I dont know when he went downhill from his supposed peak of commentating skills, that I'll take your word for it. That said, he laughed at Red Rum that day - who would have beaten Hennessey winner Spanish Steps and Gold Cup winner The Dikler had 12yo L'Escargot missed the race for some reason. I'm not denegrating Red Rum's achievements, I'm not sure why his performance has to be forgotten when talking about Red Rum being the greatest, not to mention Crisp.
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I wasnt knocking L'escargot at all.he was a brilliant horse but weight stopped horses winning.if my memory is right L'escargot carried 12st previously but when he was getting weight,he won.
 
Outsider said:
I wasnt knocking L'escargot at all.he was a brilliant horse but weight stopped horses winning.if my memory is right L'escargot carried 12st previously but when he was getting weight,he won.
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L'Escargot carried 12 stone in 1973, joint top weight with Crisp, beaten 25 lengths by Crisp in third. Carried 11-13 1974 receiving 1 lb from Red Rum and beaten 7 lengths or so. Received 12 lbs from Rummy in 75.
Was then retired and gifted to Joan Moore but they ran him in 75 Kerry National, carried 12-7 and beaten a head by Black Mac 10-3. Raymond Guest removed the horse then and took him home to Virginia USA.
He was runner up in 72 Kerry National also so never could conquer Listowel, a major blip on his cv !
 
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