Aidan O'Brien/Ballydoyle

Hamm

Hamm

At the Start
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Reading this article ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/08/tactical-failure-aidan-obrien-derby-losing-record ) got me thinking that despite saddling second, third, fourth and fifth, it was a pretty bad Derby for him/them...

- Now 32 losers in the Derby, despite having access to the best staying stallions
- Made a complete mess of tactics
- Put a jockey on their best chance who is not up to winning a Group 1 outside Ireland.
- Annoyed many racegoers with the quite arrogant bringing in of their horses late into the parade ring, ensuring those who had spent 45 mins+ waiting to see half the field were out of luck. The fine was disproportionately low considering the Derby went off 8 minutes late as a result. Gosden also did the same Friday, but one horse in the Oaks with half the field in the Derby bares no comparison.
- Showed they have little interest in furthering the sport with the bland and unnecessary lack of information and communication about their horses during Epsom's Breakfast with the Stars. Contrast this with Oxx who flew across especially for the programme, recognising his position as trainer of the favourite and promoting the race.
 
What was the problem with the Breakfast With The Stars thing? I haven't read anything close to a full transcript of the live phone interview he gave for it.
 
I'm very much paraphrasing but every horse was 'fine and has come on from his trial'. Nothing else despite numerous attempts at extracting some genuine information, to give people some information on half the Derby field. It's not exactly a handicap price you're protecting so I don't see the issue with being forthright.
 
Heffernan has won a Group 1 in England already.

Gosden of course did it on a horse that often gets buzzed up before a race and is the type to ideally avoid the build up to the race. O'Brien delay was due to the fact he took too long to saddle them up, Gosden clearly did it on purpose.

O'Brien's build up comments were absolutely painful to listen to....but do we ever get the same threads or articles written in papers regarding Stoute? Has one British paper even mentioned Gosden's fine?
 
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On the other hand, Ballydoyle managed to provide four colts capable of running a potentially well above-average Derby winner to two lengths (or so). Not too bad by anybodys standards, surely?
 
Gosden = one horse, less than 15% of runners
AOB = 6 horses, half the field.

That makes it newsworthy, imo.

Interviews need to be made mandatory. How and by who can be open to debate, but Stoute should not be able to avoid this.

Why did O'Brien have to saddle all 6 himself? Even if he did have to (?!), then why couldn't they be brought up one by one?
 
trackside528 said:
On the other hand, Ballydoyle managed to provide four colts capable of running a potentially well above-average Derby winner to two lengths (or so). Not too bad by anybodys standards, surely?
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Well-above average Derby when most were convinced an O'Brien hotpot would win.

Not so afterwards.
 
Hamm said:
I'm very much paraphrasing but every horse was 'fine and has come on from his trial'. Nothing else despite numerous attempts at extracting some genuine information, to give people some information on half the Derby field.
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What did he not say that he should have?
 
- Put a jockey on their best chance who is not up to winning a Group 1 outside Ireland
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Where are you trying to go with this? Why would it be somehow easier for jockeys to win Group 1s in Ireland? Local boys Murtagh, Kinane, Smullen are in the front rank of jockeys anywhere. Manning and McDonogh would also be top 10 material if riding in the UK. Not to mention the jockeys flying in for Irish big race days, like Dettori, Moore et al.

And anyway Seamus Heffernan has already won a Group 1 outside Ireland.
 
Hamm said:
If you think that's sufficient, then there's no point inme expanding.
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I do not think it was sufficient, it was painful to listen to. I do not expect him to say who is number 1,2,3,etc but his "going forward" comments for each and every runner with little or no individual evaluations was not enough.
 
Hamm said:
If you think that's sufficient, then there's no point inme expanding.
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But I don't know what he said or didn't say! Did you hear the full interview? What kind of info would you like him to have offered?
 
Sorry, that looked rude! I think he should have gone through his thoughts on the horse, how he expects him to run (style), how he has come on(specifics) since his trial, who (it can be more than one) he expects are his best chances.

One thing should always be remembered ... Coolmore need the Derby more than the Derby needs Coolmore.
 
Hamm said:
Well-above average Derby when most were convinced an O'Brien hotpot would win.

Not so afterwards.
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Why can it not be well above average just because an O'Brien horse didn't win it? You've lost me.

Personally, I think Sea The Stars would possibly have won by further if the race had been run at a stronger gallop.
 
So do I.

The common consensus before the Derby on here was it would take a monster performance to win it. As it didn't work out like most forecasted, the race was downplayed in terms of performance.
 
Hamm said:
So do I.

The common consensus before the Derby on here was it would take a monster performance to win it. As it didn't work out like most forecasted, the race was downplayed in terms of performance.
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No one expected the pace to be so slow...that in turned ensured a bunched finish...its impossible to give STS a 130 rating for beating 5 horses by 2 lengths.....it would be the same if Fame And Glory did it...does not mean STS is not a 130 horse. He is.
 
- Now 32 losers in the Derby, despite having access to the best staying stallions
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Here's his complete record:

1998 Second Empire (8th), Saratoga Springs (10th), King Of Kings (15th)
1999 Saffron Walden (7th)
2000 Our Aristotle (10th)
2001 Galileo (1st)
2002 High Chaparral (1st), Hawk Wing (2nd), Louisville (9th)
2003 The Great Gatsby (2nd), Balestrini (5th), Alberto Giacometti (12th), Brian Boru (16th)
2004 Meath (14th)
2005 Gypsy King (5th), Grand Central (9th), Oratorio (10th), Almighty (12th)
2006 Dylan Thomas (3rd), Mountain (8th), Septimus (12th), Horatio Nelson (PU)
2007 Eagle Mountain (2nd), Soldier Of Fortune (5th), Yellowstone (8th), Acapulco (9th), Admiralofthfleet (10th), Mahler (11th), Anton Chekhov (12th), Archipenko (17th)
2008 Washington Irving (5th), Allesandro Volta (6th), Frozen Fire (11th), King Of Rome (12th), Bashkirov (15th)
2009 Fame And Glory (2nd), Masterofthehorse (3rd), Rip Van Winkle (4th), Golden Sword (5th), Age Of Aquarius (7th), Black Bear Island (10th)

2 wins, 4 seconds, 2 thirds.

Bearing in mind that all of the ones in bold had either finished in the first two in a Group race trial earlier that season, or won a Group 1 or Group 2 race as a 2yo, which ones should have been deprived of their one and only shot at the Derby?

Which of those showed subsequently that they should have done better?

For me, out of all of those Dylan Thomas is the only one that genuinely got away.

Soldier of Fortune should probably have done better, but would never have beaten Authorized.

Oratorio ran an absolute stinker but managed to turn the form around with Motivator a couple of times, albeit in very different circumstances. Archipenko also ran a stinker but eventually made up for it with de Kock, albeit again over shorter trips.

Brian Boru and Septimus were simply too slow but subsequently proved themselves over further.

King of Kings and Horatio Nelson both suffered career (or life) ending injuries that day and we never got to see how good Gypsy King really was when he broke his leg at the Curragh.

Other than that, I don't see too many superstars. Frozen Fire, for example, is one of the luckiest Classic winners in history.

If only Yeats hadn't done his back in...
 
Aiden O'Brien and his staff will probably be disappointed at not winning the Derby.

However, to have four in the first five is a creditable achievement, and one which were it attained by any other stable would be treated as such. Many of the top stables didn't even contain a colt good enough to compete in this year's Derby.
 
' Listen, We don't think any of these horses are going to win, why do you think we're running six, do you understand?'
 
Hamm said:
So do I.

The common consensus before the Derby on here was it would take a monster performance to win it. As it didn't work out like most forecasted, the race was downplayed in terms of performance.
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Hamm I don't think it has been downplayed, practically all of the post race comment on this forum has been positive towards Sea the Stars and his performance.
 
If we take out Sea the Stars, what would the topic of conversation be?? Would Mr O Brien get credit for his training feat? I think this year we seen an exceptional winner, when compared with others in the not so distant past...
 
Hamm said:
Gosden = one horse, less than 15% of runners
AOB = 6 horses, half the field.

That makes it newsworthy, imo.
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Imagine O'Brien had a hot headed Derby or Oaks favourite that he deliberately did not bring into the parade ring until such a late stage....the British press and co would be going barmy.

O'Brien got permission to saddle up in the yard...he got delayed and being the control nut that he is he did not want to let any of the horses walk up themselves.

Gosden on the other hand (unless something was wrong saddling her up) clearly did this with such events planned in advance. Purposefully avoiding the parade ring with his hot headed filly.

Who exactly has the more distasteful or unsatisfactory intent? O'Brien or Gosden?

I see Mr A.Down is doing a piece in the Racing Post tomorrow on this....it will be interesting to see if Gosden is mentioned.
 
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uncle goober said:
' Listen, We don't think any of these horses are going to win, why do you think we're running six, do you understand?'
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You forgot to add "and please take no notice of the fact that I saddled mine in the stable yard and a high % of my runners are now sweating under the saddle!"
 
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