Apt Approach

Originally posted by useful@Feb 22 2008, 06:43 PM
Rule Supreme won the RSA - a false dawn unfortunately.
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Since the RSA win, Rule Supreme won the French Champion Hurdle and the Hennessey Gold Cup, as well as coming third in a Stayers' Hurdle and second in the G1 chase at Festival to Kicking King.

Irish racing does not have and average of two jump meetings a day during the winter. This results in much larger fields, making it impossible to get the types of strike rates enjoyed by Pipe and Nicholls. According to my paper today, there were three 5 runner races, one 6 runner race and one 8 runner race in the UK.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that comparisons of strike rates are spurious. In fact, I seem to remember last year that Mullins had the highest strike rate in Ireland among the leading 30 or so trainers.

I do agree that Nicholls is a better trainer.
 
In the same period Nicholls has won 2 titles, and been defeated only by the legend that is M C Pipe. He averaged a Strike Rate of 22.6% with far greater numbers of runners than Mullins or Mead for that matter. He has done this in a far more competitive environment being challenged by the massed ranks of O’Neill, Pipe Jnr, King, Henderson and Hobbs.
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Although you could argue that competition at the uper echelons is tougher in the UK than in Ireland, it is a lot harder to win a poor race in Ireland.

The Canny Granny managed to plunder a feck load of races in Musselburgh, Pipe used to send out loads of winners at Taunton and Nicholls fills his boots in Wincanton.

Because the racing is sh!t.
 
That Bar is an excellent point. Comparing UK and Irish stats is meanlingless.
Mullins is a very good trainer indeed and it's foolish to suggest otherwise.
Edward OGrady overtrains his horses imo - some which come over here look like hatracks.

For me, a good trainer is one who keeps them going for many years, running up to their best capability - whatever that is
Henderson & Nicholls certainly do that. I think King will show he can do it when he's been going longer.
 
Hang on a minute.

I have never disputed Mullins is a good trainer - I have simply challenged the assertion that he is a great trainer as some people on here seem to think he is. The comparison has naturally, it seems, drawn us to comparisons with Nicholls.

I would suggest attaining a higher strike rate with considerably more runners is a far harder thing to do. If Trainer A has 2 runners, and one wins he has a 50% strike rate. If trainer B has 400 runners and 200 win he also has a 50% strike rate. Which trainer do you think has made a greater achivement?

Bar to suggest winning races at Wincanton and Taunton is "easy" is preposterous. The West Country scene is fiercely competitive. Denman and Noland's victories at Wincanton were "shite" were they? Wincanton happens to be a stones throw from Ditcheat which is why Nicholls often introduces some of his better horses there. But he often runs into hots pots from Hobbs, King, O'Neill, Dartnall, Mann, etc on his home patch.

Just because there are huge fields in Ireland because of the pitfully low number of meetings does not mean the racing is any more competitive. In any case the fact remains that whoever you compare Mullins with, Nicholls or Meade he is not the best and nor will he be in my opinion.

Rule Supreme won the RSA (although he wouldn;t have if Strong Promise had not been injured) and as you say then won the French Champion Hurdle and the Irish Hennessey Gold Cup, as well as coming third in a Stayers' Hurdle and second in the G1 chase at Punchestown NOT Cheltenham Festival to Kicking King.

Denman won the RSA last season, won two Hennessey's, one a signficiant historical weight carrying perfomance, and is now joint favourite for the Gold Cup.

Was running Rule Supreme after his gruelling RSA win at Aintree, then in a Whitbread and then in a Heineken Gold Cup all in the space of 6 weeks the actions of a prudent successful trainer? Was then asking him to got to Auteuill twice in a month really wise? Or perhaps Mullins didn't rate the horse and thought lets get what we can while the iron is hot. I am in absolutely no doubt if that horse was with Nicholls, for instance, he would have achieved a lot more. And for what its worth I also believe Florida Pearl did not achieve what he could have done because of his trainer. He constantly chopped and changed the tactics when it was palpable that he performed best when ridden positively as evidenced by Adrian Maguire's inspired chance ride aboard him in the King George.
 
Garney, simply writing the words "Strong" and "Promise" don;t actually make a point. What is the point you are making?

Gareth, think I miscalculated their, or maybe did the average using his poor season. In any case I was making a positive point that his strike rate has actually been consistent.
 
The point that i was making is that Strong Promise finished second in a gold cup 5 years before rule supreme won his Sun Alliance. He wasn't eligible for the race and he was dead for four years before the race.

Lot of opinions, few useful points, and not nearly as stylish pr knowledgeable as some of the previous professional aggrevators that frequented the site previously. The past month has made me miss them. Hopefully, you will have your fill soon.
 
I meant Strong Flow, of course. A mistake, I am human after all. Strong Flow destroyed Rule Supreme in the Feltham and was found to have injured himself in that race.

I am not a professional aggravator, I dont claim to be stylish or knowledgable.

I dont come on forums to make friends, or ingratiate myself with anybody. I bet on a very regular basis and I like to vent my opinions online. I have been a follower of racing since 1972.

Since being on here the main bones of contention have been:

1) My opinion of Sizing Europe's Champion Hurdle chances
2) My opinion of Christian Williams
3) My opinion of Willie Mullins and in turn the Cheltenham Champion Bumper

I have not deliberatley set out to aggravate anybody. I have made my views known and people with obvious passion about the subject have engaged me. The length of the posts are as much a result of people like Gareth and Gal engaging me as my own involvement.

Gareth was actually quite positive about the debate caused on one of these threads saying thats what forums are about.

If everybody agreed wouldn't a forum be a very dull place?

Also, its interesting you talk of a number of people coming on here as pro aggravators. Do you not think there is a trend here. People come on with views that do not meet with the majority and in the end give up on the forum?

Lets face it, this is hardly what you might call a "busy" forum. Indeed, for a lot of the time the 3 moderators fuel most of the conversation.
 
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