Arkle-Are we real???

[Grey]

David Johnson is right, the comparison is largely pointless.

Forty years ago football was played on pitches whose only grassy areas were along the wings. The ball was a heavy leathery object which couldn't be kicked much beyond the halfway line. It was so heavy, especially when wet, that many former players who frequently headed them now have brain damage. In these circumstances the emphasis was more on strength and stamina than speed.

Nowadays pitches are far better prepared and balls are more erodynamic and much lighter. Perhaps Ronaldo might still have shone in the minimum wage era if playing a very different type of role. Torres, on the other hand, might never have shone at all.

In jump racing the comparison is similar. High ratings in the Arkle/Flyingbolt era mostly came from winning handicaps run on bad ground by wide margins while conceding big amounts of weight. Denman would have been reasonably suited to the old-fashioned style of racing but not Kauto.

 

[Ardross]

Wasn't SC 2nd in 1967 to Woodland Venture ?

 

[Harbinger]

I don't suppose anyone's got any old form books from the mid-1960s and would like to give us some data from the races in question - i.e. going descriptions, times, beaten distances, weights etc.?

 

[rorydelargy]

I don't suppose anyone's got any old form books from the mid-1960s and would like to give us some data from the races in question - i.e. going descriptions, times, beaten distances, weights etc.?

1964 ~ Going: Good. Time: 6:45.6 5l, 25l (5 ran)

1965 ~ Going: Firm. Time: 6:41.2 20l, 30l (4 ran)

1966 ~ Going: Good. Time 6:54.4 30l, 10l (5 ran)

 

[Harbinger]

Cheers Rory!

 

[rorydelargy]

While I'm at it:

1986 ~ Going: Good. Time 6:35.3 1l, 2 1/2l (11 ran)


Now we're talking!

 

[Tout Seul]

Are you going to have a go at it, Gareth?

I assume someone has already done it as there is a recurring debate.

My problem is that whilst I can accept that Arkle and Flyingbolt were exceptional animals the continuing degree of superiority of two animals in a relatively short period is too much of a stretch.

 

[SteveM]

I saw Arkle win his third Gold Cup. I promise you I have only seen glimpses of certain aspects of him in others since. The horse was a freak... I wouldn't be surprised if he was a different species, he was certainly different class.

I never saw Easter Hero, but he deserves mention. They say he was just about as good as anything else.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Mill House once had an OR of 191 -I think .

They didn't have ORs in those days. When handicaps were framed the top weight was allocated 12-7 and different weights allocated on a race by race basis, hence Arkle could have been asked to give MH 21lbs in one race and maybe more maybe less in a different race.

 

[Euronymous]

191 was the rating Timeform gave him.

 

[EC1]

1964 ~ Going: Good. Time: 6:45.6 5l, 25l (5 ran)

1965 ~ Going: Firm. Time: 6:41.2 20l, 30l (4 ran)

1966 ~ Going: Good. Time 6:54.4 30l, 10l (5 ran)

Rory

was the foxhunters on the same day?...be interesting to see the times if so..

its interesting that we have a horse that is so good...its beyond some peoples comprehension...so it seems best to try and normalise it.

If we assume that Millhouse was at least a 175 horse...was supposed to be the best chaser in years yes?...then a horse beating it 30 lengths at levels has got to be some creature...to do so in a hack canter just adds to it

I wonder what rating KS would get next year if Denman is back to his best and KS wins by 20 lengths...not in a canter though

 

[EC1]

does anyone not think it really coincidental that two of the best hurdlers since the war were from the same stable...at the same time????

NIGHT NURSE & SEA PIGEON

seeing as that is being used as some illogical argument here..its called coincidence I reckon

 

[Ardross]

191 was the rating Timeform gave him.

Thanks. I knew he was rated 191 by some organisation

 

[Ardross]

I think it is instructive to note that Stalbridge Colonist was touched off in the 1967 Gold Cup - 4 months after beating Arkle in the Hennessy - receiving 33lb and after Mellor rode the pants off Pat Taaffe .

 

[Desert Orchid]

Durty beast.

 

[SteveM]

They didn't have ORs in those days. When handicaps were framed the top weight was allocated 12-7 and different weights allocated on a race by race basis, hence Arkle could have been asked to give MH 21lbs in one race and maybe more maybe less in a different race.

Arkle was the only horse in history to be responsible for changing the handicap scale to accomodate him.

 

[Irish Stamp]

If what's been put above is correct (I've no reason to believe it isn't) then the weights being allocated on a race by race basis back then and the lack of OR's would be partly responsible for that Steve.

The advent of an official OR will mean that the weights will just rise X lbs's should the top rated horse come out.

 

[SteveM]

The way it was was that the weights were raised to 12st 7lb in races in which he was taking part, as it was deemed (with just cause) he would have won too easily otherwise.

 

[Harbinger]

What was the minimum weight back then?

 

[SteveM]

10 stone... I can check differentials for particular races later.

 

[Harbinger]

So without the weight-rise, Arkle would have everything out of the handicap and actually have an easier time in handicaps than conditions races.

Edit: ok, not quite an easier time than a level-weights race, but he would be rewarded for his brilliance by having to overcome less than normal in a handicap. Which defeats the purpose of a handicap...

 

[SteveM]

I think it is instructive to note that Stalbridge Colonist was touched off in the 1967 Gold Cup - 4 months after beating Arkle in the Hennessy - receiving 33lb and after Mellor rode the pants off Pat Taaffe .

Off the top of my head I believe it was the full 35lb (I can check later). Can't remember how much further SC was out of the handicap proper.

 

[SteveM]

So without the weight-rise, Arkle would have everything out of the handicap and actually have an easier time in handicaps than conditions races.

Edit: ok, not quite an easier time than a level-weights race, but he would be rewarded for his brilliance by having to overcome less than normal in a handicap. Which defeats the purpose of a handicap...

Just so... The alternative would have been to raise the upper limit even more, or to lower the base.

 

[Ardross]

Anyone doubting Arkle should watch this - his Whitbread win for a start - carrying 12-7 giving the Scottish National winner Brasher over two stone !

Can you believe a horse carrying that much weight over that trip can pick up like this up the Sandown hill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr6kYAcEcAg&feature=related

 

[SteveM]

Arkle didn’t carry less than 12 stone in his last 19 races. Rated 212 in 1965/66. The most he carried was 12st 10lb in the Massey-Ferguson Gold Cup in which he was beaten a length in third. He ran 26 times over fences: won 22, 2nd 2, 3rd 2. In 1964 he beat Mill House in the Hennessy Gold Cup by 10 lengths under 12st 7lb and beat Mill House 20 lengths in the 1965 Gold Cup. Stalbridge Colonist beat him half a length in receipt of 35lb in the 1966 Hennessy Gold Cup. Six horses finished in front of him in steeplechases and five of those were in receipt of upwards of 21lb. The only horse to beat Arkle giving him weight was Mill House in 1963, from who he received 5lb.