Balloting

Chris - read the HRI documentation posted on here; it takes such situations into account and, as I also mentioned in my post, it gives trainers enough time and notice to improve the handicap marks of the horses concerned if they are so capable.
 
I have a little parable,it may not be fully applicable but I fear enough of it is.

When rugby union became a professional game , the clubs in Ireland looked around and started thinking about how they would afford it. Rather than developing their infrastructure (Gyms, restuarants etc) to bring in new paying customers like the Rugby League clubs successfully did in the U.K and Australia they decided to try and cut their expenditure by neglecting the junior sections of their clubs and concentrating resources on two top teams.

The result was the junior member who was more likely to drink in the bar with his partner and kids. Travel to away games to support the first 15 and generally support the club in all the different ways grassroots do where alienated. Also the opportunity for non precautious players to come through the ranks improving slowly and steadily,the toughest of the tough, was lost.Their toughness, durability, determination lost.

Club rugby in Ireland is struggling to survive and if that goes than province and country will struggle too. I know it's not directly applicable but it does have relevance and this is why I hate people being excluded. As I always say to friends who harp on about the local club playing in the first division at any cost,.The club was founded by people who loved rugby and wanted to create an opportunity for everyone . They did not found the club so that a few could play in a League that did not exist at the time.

Who do the horse racing authorities represent now ? do they represent the grassroots, the diehards in thurles, Naas and Sligo on a wet November day or have those people become irrelevant ?
 
Sheikh said:
Who do the horse racing authorities represent now ? do they represent the grassroots, the diehards in thurles, Naas and Sligo on a wet November day or have those people become irrelevant ?
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I think Sheikh you are missing the point of the thread though. Ballotting is a major problem in Ireland because the system has not kept up with the huge over production in Ireland. Over the last ten to fifteen years we have been breeding horses like rabbits. This has been helped by a good dose of the Celtic Tiger. The number of meetings has not increased to support the over production, nor should it dramatically increase in my view. The problem is over production of bad quality horses. The only way to sort this out is to increase the minimum level from an appalling low number to just a low number. In my view they could up it another few pounds. Any horse that cannot achieve this level over jumps shouls be running in point to points and I actually think the current economic environment will help ballotting over the next few years as the numbers of horses just vanishing will be huge. Breeders left with their horses are not going to support them for long and with small owners and syndicates dropping out of the game there will be no home for them. So I can see the number of horses naturally dropping off over the next few years which will help. But a good systems shift would start the job too.
 
Sheikh do you agree with the current over breeding? If you are happy and think poor horses have the right to be raced and given the opportunity to compete I would imagine you also agree with the right and the opportunity of poor quality mares (who have been racing and winning low grade events) to breed?

If you only breed the strong or better types that could be classed as "elitist" and if these low grade animals are being given the opportunity to race and the opportunities are made for them to do so, then the continuation of the current breeding system should go ahead?
 
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Sheikh do you agree with the current over breeding? If you are happy and think poor horses have the right to be raced and given the opportunity to compete I would imagine you also agree with the right and the opportunity of poor quality mares (who have been racing and winning low grade events) to breed?
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I think if people want to breed and race sh1t horses and pay for the pleasure of it,that is their right. I don't think they should be rewarded with the same prize money.

If you only breed the strong or better types that could be classed as "elitist" and if these low grade animals are being given the opportunity to race and the opportunities are made for them to do so, then the continuation of the current breeding system should go ahead?
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Everybody goes out to breed the strong or better type, there's no one hoping to breed a dog. The natural order of the market (as has been pointed out by Cantoris) will soon cull the no. of mares being bred in these less certain economic times. A well bred mare who raced well is nearly as likely to produce a bad horse as a good one.
 
I think if people want to breed and race sh1t horses and pay for the pleasure of it,that is their right. I don't think they should be rewarded with the same prize money.
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But the extra racing for these "sh1t horses" will take away the prize money from the higher class/grade horses.

A well bred mare who raced well is nearly as likely to produce a bad horse as a good one.
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Hmmmm will definitely agree to disagree on that one!
 
The effect that racing bad horses has on the over all level of prize money can be minimised by having banded levels of prize money.

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A well bred mare who raced well is nearly as likely to produce a bad horse as a good one.

Hmmmm will definitely agree to disagree on that one!
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Ok, I made that one up a bit :p The point is I've seen good stock from bad racemares and bad stock from good racemares.
 
depends if you want races full of sheikh owned horses or not. Less horses, less trainers, less jobs, less money going back into the industry.
 
Sheikh said:
The effect that racing bad horses has on the over all level of prize money can be minimised by having banded levels of prize money.



Ok, I made that one up a bit :p The point is I've seen good stock from bad racemares and bad stock from good racemares.
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I agree with you Sheikh, Ive seen listed and group mares throw up yek after yak, however a little hard 65 rated sprinter throws up a superstar.
 
Sheikh said:
I think if people want to breed and race sh1t horses and pay for the pleasure of it,that is their right. I don't think they should be rewarded with the same prize money.
And the races for those horses are in the point to point fields, not the racecourse. It is not in anyones interests to race bad horses. What does the game or its stakeholders really gain from a horse consistently coming down the field in a bad race. Ok, there are some owners that just want a pet to run but they can do that in the pointing arena and without the hefty costs of entry fees and jockeys. There should be a focus on ensuring it is not attractive to breed or race bad horses. I've been an advocate for splitting those bad handicap hurdles in three so that the prizemoney is €3k to winner rather than €8k. Why should bad horses be racing for the same money as a maiden hurdle winner. You only need to win one or be placed four or five times to start paying for the year.

But as I said, I think the macroeconomic environment is going to sort out a lot of the problems......although if it was an elitist sport surely then it would be affected by trivial matters such as money!!
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Cantoris said:
Sheikh said:
I think if people want to breed and race sh1t horses and pay for the pleasure of it,that is their right. I don't think they should be rewarded with the same prize money.
And the races for those horses are in the point to point fields, not the racecourse. It is not in anyones interests to race bad horses. What does the game or its stakeholders really gain from a horse consistently coming down the field in a bad race. Ok, there are some owners that just want a pet to run but they can do that in the pointing arena and without the hefty costs of entry fees and jockeys. There should be a focus on ensuring it is not attractive to breed or race bad horses. I've been an advocate for splitting those bad handicap hurdles in three so that the prizemoney is €3k to winner rather than €8k. Why should bad horses be racing for the same money as a maiden hurdle winner. You only need to win one or be placed four or five times to start paying for the year.

But as I said, I think the macroeconomic environment is going to sort out a lot of the problems......although if it was an elitist sport surely then it would be affected by trivial matters such as money!!
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I love the way everyone talks about the Pointing field, Points are fiercly tough and also what if you have flat horses. I personally think a bigger problem is too many 0-70 to 0-85 races, these races always have small fields yet 0-50, 0-55 and 0-60 are well over subscribed. It makes more sence to have only a couple of better races with few runners than 2 0-50 or 0-55 a week, where 60 horses are entering.

The card at Wolves on Monday weren't great but it was the two valuable races that were small fields, yet the two lesser races were well over subscribed.

I actually reckon if you ran 6 0-50 or 0-60 races on a Monday or Saturday at Wolves, over a range of trips, you would still get the same crowds there. Also I would rather see a 4k added 0-50 with 12 runners, than a 8k 0-85 woth 5 runners, makes no sense.
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What does the game or its stakeholders really gain from a horse consistently coming down the field in a bad race.
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Horses rated 45 can and do beat horses rated 60 in 45-60s. Plenty of people get a thrill from winning these races. They don't have to be running down the field all the time.

I've been an advocate for splitting those bad handicap hurdles in three so that the prizemoney is €3k to winner rather than €8k. Why should bad horses be racing for the same money as a maiden hurdle winner
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I think that's a very good idea.

But as I said, I think the macroeconomic environment is going to sort out a lot of the problems
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Yes it will.

......although if it was an elitist sport surely then it would be affected by trivial matters such as money!!
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I didn't say it was en elitist sport, I said the policy was elitist.
 
Sheikh said:
Horses rated 45 can and do beat horses rated 60 in 45-60s. Plenty of people get a thrill from winning these races. They don't have to be running down the field all the time.
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While I'd prefer to see no 45 rated horses at all, I have less of a problem with one that actually move up the ratings eventually rather than those ones that consistently move down the ratings. The handicapping system is not reactive to horses that are just no good. You might somehow fluke a 55 rating with a woeful horse after three runs (slow run maiden and beaten 20 lenghts). On it's first handicap run it comes last, beaten a furlong. No change in mark., Next time, the same and no change in mark as the handicapper is worried you are puling the wool over his eyes. Third handicap, same result, drops to 52 and so on until it hits 45 after say its fifth or sixth run in a handicap. So that's nine runs with only one small, actually very small, glimmer of hope. But it took space up for other horses that might be prgressive off 50.

And a horse rated 20 might beat one rated 120 too in a handicap simply because of the weight difference. Doesn't mean it is right to have a 20 rated horse in racing. But we can agree to disagree on this one. At least it is a lively debate.
 
chrisbeekracing said:
I love the way everyone talks about the Pointing field, Points are fiercly tough and also what if you have flat horses.
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Chris, you should come to Ireland. There are horses winning points that have previously raced on the track with form figures 0000. I used to go pointing quite a lot and still do the odd occasion and while there are good meetings and races, a seven year old maiden in May is possibly one of the worst races you can get. And that's before you consider the absolute dross that is in the mares races.

So I wouldn't get carried away when you see Best Mate and the likes coming from the Irish point fields. The standard of four and five year old maidens is good at half the track and the winners of one and two tend to be very competitive.but the rest of the races are a very very mixed bag.
 
Hmmm... sounds like your problem is with the handicapping system there, anyway I'll leave you with the last word.;)
 
Well Galileo I'm sure you would find more non group 1 winning mares that throw up group 1 winners, than group 1 winning mares that do.

That is one thing that is factual.
 
I don't think you would find many 40 - 55 rated mares actually Galileo;

But there are hundreds of mares at Coolmoore and Darley that struggled to win a race rated 60s - 70s, but were a full sister to a stallion, which throw up alot of dross. The difference is they hope to breed fillies to continue bloodlines.

If you look at alot of horses rated 45 - 55 running at present, some were decent horses at some stage in their careers and some are very well bred.

My horse Stargazy is rated 48, but he is a son of a Queen Mary winner, now does that mean because he is only a low grade handicapper that Romantic Myth shouldn't be allowed to be covered any more.

I think there are alot more rubbish horses in ireland at lower levels than in England. I've seen alot of 45 - 50 horses come from Ireland to run in these races in England and severely struggle, yet can still win in Ireland.

Cantoris to your earlier remark I should run my pointers in Ireland, it would cost alot to go over and neither of my pointers are maiden's and one has run in valuable points where he has met winners of decent hunter chases. Pointing in England is very competitive but maiden's are weak in points over here, problem is there isn't loads of maiden points and another thing is its bloody hard to find a maiden without a Caroline Bailey, Sean Curran, or Richard Barber runner, whose maiden's are alot better than 70 rated failed hurdlers.
 
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I've seen alot of 45 - 50 horses come from Ireland to run in these races in England and severely struggle, yet can still win in Ireland.
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I reckon there are more cases of these type of horses that can't win (or be competitive) in Ireland being able to win (or be competitive) in England. It really is very hard to find a race bad enough for a sub 50 horse to win over here. When the reverse happens it can often be put down to travelling - cost would be more of a factor in the comfort in which they travel as opposed to the stars heading over - and running on all-weather tracks they aren't used to. Any trainer sending an over-rated sub 50 rated horse to England would need a good kick up the backside. Of course that grade is littered with horses who'll just follow the pack regardless of ability.
 
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chrisbeekracing said:
I love the way everyone talks about the Pointing field, Points are fiercly tough and also what if you have flat horses.
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Run them in Arab races - if the demand is as great as you seem to think it is then that sphere will grow rapidly and ARO will be only too happy to extend their ratings band to horses rated more than 40 and put on extra races, I'm sure.

I personally think a bigger problem is too many 0-70 to 0-85 races, these races always have small fields yet 0-50, 0-55 and 0-60 are well over subscribed. It makes more sence to have only a couple of better races with few runners than 2 0-50 or 0-55 a week, where 60 horses are entering.

The card at Wolves on Monday weren't great but it was the two valuable races that were small fields, yet the two lesser races were well over subscribed.

I actually reckon if you ran 6 0-50 or 0-60 races on a Monday or Saturday at Wolves, over a range of trips, you would still get the same crowds there. Also I would rather see a 4k added 0-50 with 12 runners, than a 8k 0-85 woth 5 runners, makes no sense
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Are you really being serious, Chris? You would like to see cards full of 0-50 and 0-60 races? What good does that do the sport other than to promote and encourage the growth of poor horses?

I really don't think that everyone quite gets that this is a serious problem in racing, UK racing in particular. More and more crappy horses are being produced; mainly down to the overproduction and the sending to stud of poor mares - nevermind winning poor races (as has been mentioned), there are a massive amount of mares being bred from that not only never won a race, didn't even trouble the judge in their career! Added to that, the owners of these bad horses are being encouraged to keep them in training by the very existence of such low grade races.

I think that the system in Ireland is a very good idea and is being done fairly and sensibly. Please, will someone over here sit up and take notice!
 
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