Balloting

Sheikh said:
So it's a minimum of 45 next year ,correct ?

I don't agree with the policy, If people are prepared to train them and own them they should be allowed race them, and the authorities should make that possible. Has he stated what rating is his ultimate goal ?
Click to expand...


a) Where exactly will all these extra races be ran? The current racecourses can barely handle the amount of racing currently. All weather tracks might seem the answer but again where will the income for these tracks come from? Dundalk is basically a corporate racecourse , all the income coming from tables of people indoors. It is a greyhound track with horses running on it! If that’s the way Irish racing wants to go that’s fine but at least with Dundalk the racing is of a high quality.
b) If there are more runners where does the prize money come from? Irish horse racing is trying to wean itself off government funding for obvious reasons, so the coppers are not (nor have ever been) bulging. Cut the minimum prize money levels are the only answer and the wrong way to go. It would be a sad day for Irish racing to see horses race for the crumbs on offer at some British tracks.

It is all well and good to say any horse should have the right to run, but it has major implications. It is not ideal by any means but I think they are going the right route.
 
I think it's a very good idea and they are approaching it sensibly. I do wish we'd employ the same procedure over here.
 
I'm delighted to hear the new changes. I watched a maiden hurdle the other night and a few of them were being scrubbed from the third flight. Same in the bumper. At least they have five chances to be within 45 lengths of the winner. If the horse is any good the trainer should be able to place the horse into one of the poorer maiden hurdles and get that close. If not, then to the point to point fields where they should have started anyway and eventually it will get out of the system altogether. I have a feeling there will be a massive cull of horses, maybe not this year but def next year. A lot of pinhookers and breeders have been left with their horses from the sales. These will all go into training and will eventually be culled. It is one thing a syndicate paying to keep a bad horse for two years but a breeder will not keep a bad one for two years. Six months to a year then gone. Between these new rules and the economic conditions, I'd expect the 10,000 ballots in national hunt races to drop considerably, maybe not this season but next season when the cull begins.
 
All weather tracks might seem the answer but again where will the income for these tracks come from? Dundalk is basically a corporate racecourse , all the income coming from tables of people indoors. It is a greyhound track with horses running on it! If that’s the way Irish racing wants to go that’s fine but at least with Dundalk the racing is of a high quality.
b) If there are more runners where does the prize money come from? Irish horse racing is trying to wean itself off government funding for obvious reasons, so the coppers are not (nor have ever been) bulging. Cut the minimum prize money levels are the only answer and the wrong way to go. It would be a sad day for Irish racing to see horses race for the crumbs on offer at some British tracks.
Click to expand...

I think you ask and answer the important question yourself. Where would the horses run and where would the prize money come from and yes the answer is the Corporates. Why should Harolds cross and Shelbourne park have the majority share. Racing has a better product to sell to the public/the corporates.It has a higher profile and greater prestige.

Rather than trying to expand the game, gain more owners and create more employment this will obviously result in less horses in training meaning less owners and less employment for people working in the sectre.It's a backward elitist step.
 
I'd like to see something brought in over here.

We have two horses in training with official marks of 1 (Deer Park Lord and Ronnies Girl).

Why they are kept in training beggers belief.

And anything that leads to not seeing Art of Being ever set foot on a racecourse ever again has to be applauded.
I fear that if Chapman continues to run this horse there is an accident waiting to happen,so far Messers Cullinane & Vickers have escaped serious injury.
How I don't know!!
 
In the UK off-course betting has been the mainstay of racing's finances, but that has never been the case in Ireland. Most betting shop wagers in Ireland are on British racing, and Irish racing in the main has been about getting people through the turnstiles.

True, there are a few dozen 'industry' meetings during the year which don't meet normal commercial criteria. They are run by courses at the request of the racing authorities to provide opportunities for the horse population. Four maiden hurdles and two low grade handicap hurdles, that sort of thing. We don't want to see more of these meetings. Are you sure there is more prestige in winning one of these races at an empty racecourse compared with a well attended dog track?

Winter racing in Ireland is also heavily constrained by the number of tracks that can physically take it. One meeting at Naas in March received about 500 entries, reflecting the lack of opportunities in preceding weeks, but increasing the number of meetings to address this need is not an easy option.
 
Sheikh said:
I think you ask and answer the important question yourself. Where would the horses run and where would the prize money come from and yes the answer is the Corporates. Why should Harolds cross and Shelbourne park have the majority share. Racing has a better product to sell to the public/the corporates.It has a higher profile and greater prestige.

Rather than trying to expand the game, gain more owners and create more employment this will obviously result in less horses in training meaning less owners and less employment for people working in the sectre.It's a backward elitist step.
Click to expand...

It is far from a backward or elitst step….its is promoting quality over quantity. Do you really want to go down the road the UK are going? Would you be happy for the sake of letting everything that wants to run – run resulting in prize money levels dropping? This is exactly the wrong route to go in my opinion. Expansion is not always a good thing particularly in racing. Irish racing has no shortage of owners and trainers (arguably too many) while go to any racing yard and they are struggling to get good staff.

All weather racing is not going to solve the jumping problem…what happens there? Very few of the Irish jump tracks could take on more fixtures during the year.
 
Grey said:
One meeting at Naas in March received about 500 entries, reflecting the lack of opportunities in preceding weeks, but increasing the number of meetings to address this need is not an easy option.
Click to expand...


While balloting is clearly an issue for lots of trainers, the problems are exaggerated by numbers like 500 entries. The current ballot system encourages trainers to keep entering up their horses as balloting out helps certain horses getting into certain races the next day or at a future date. So for instance for those 500 entries, if each trainer was told that he would be guaranteed a run if he declared (or that all the races were being divided) people would be surprised about how few (relatively) would be declared.
 
I think you would be surprised, Gal, to what extent trainers have to run maidens and moderate handicappers in whatever race they can get into, both in Ireland and the UK. Before getting involved with a horse or two I used to wonder why horses so often ran in obviously unsuitable races, but not any more.

And I'm not talking about Sir Bloody or Mr Martin!
 
It is far from a backward or elitst step….its is promoting quality over quantity.
Click to expand...

That's elitist. The question is whether it is the only practical solution to the problem (lack of racing opportunities) When I spoke about the prestige that racing had I meant over it's nearest competitor, dog racing. Shelbourne park is packed with corporates two or three times a week. Why is racing not muscling in on this market ? It was decided to go down this elitist road some time ago. Where viability studies done on Dundalk type facilities in Dublin, Cork, Galway or Belfast ? I believe these tracks could sustain their own prize money but if they couldn't why not create a second division of prize money for races run below a rating of say...60. Whether you or I find racing at this level attractive or not is irrelevant. Your whole take on it is to contain the growth of the industry to a manageable level rather than to look for options and grow the game.

Also, the way the climate is going, there will be a need for all-weather, NH and flat tracks in the future.
 
Sheikh said:
That's elitist. The question is whether it is the only practical solution to the problem (lack of racing opportunities) When I spoke about the prestige that racing had I meant over it's nearest competitor, dog racing. Shelbourne park is packed with corporates two or three times a week. Why is racing not muscling in on this market ? It was decided to go down this elitist road some time ago. Where viability studies done on Dundalk type facilities in Dublin, Cork, Galway or Belfast ? I believe these tracks could sustain their own prize money but if they couldn't why not create a second division of prize money for races run below a rating of say...60. Whether you or I find racing at this level attractive or not is irrelevant. Your whole take on it is to contain the growth of the industry to a manageable level rather than to look for options and grow the game.

Also, the way the climate is going, there will be a need for all-weather, NH and flat tracks in the future.
Click to expand...

Demanding quality is not elitist in the least……

The reason why Dundalk is so popular is because of the quality of racing…have a load of 45-60s and it will not be so popular in terms of attendances and betting turn over. And when I refer to popularity it is virtually all corporate guests…hardly anyone around the parade ring etc. All inside at their dinner tables….racing has gone enough down the route of getting people in the gates for simply best dressed womens comps and everything. Now we want to encourage people to come to a racecourse for their dinner and stay inside…learning nothing about racing and it just being the usual piss up.

Shelbourne Park is packed every evening/night….you are going to be hard pressed to have a jumps meeting during the week at night time! Before Dundalk was built there were surverys/studies done on various courses around the country including the likes of Naas etc. More racing requires more money, more staff, more fixtures, more racecourses etc. Dundalk was the only viable option in terms of income and costs of putting in a new course.
 
Grey said:
I think you would be surprised, Gal, to what extent trainers have to run maidens and moderate handicappers in whatever race they can get into, both in Ireland and the UK. Before getting involved with a horse or two I used to wonder why horses so often ran in obviously unsuitable races, but not any more.

And I'm not talking about Sir Bloody or Mr Martin!
Click to expand...

For sure there will be instances when trainers/owners will want to run something just for the sake of getting a run. But look out for next time a race is divided....look at the amount of declarations in comparison to the entries.
 
Demanding quality is not elitist in the least……
Click to expand...

I don't know how you can say that isn't elitist, it's nearly a dictionary definition.I'm not convinced your entirely sold on the idea yourself.

The reason why Dundalk is so popular is because of the quality of racing…have a load of 45-60s and it will not be so popular in terms of attendances and betting turn over. And when I refer to popularity it is virtually all corporate guests…hardly anyone around the parade ring etc. All inside at their dinner tables….racing has gone enough down the route of getting people in the gates for simply best dressed womens comps and everything. Now we want to encourage people to come to a racecourse for their dinner and stay inside…learning nothing about racing and it just being the usual piss up.
Click to expand...
Exactly, the Corporates in the bar couldn't give a sh1te whats running outside, they see nice names and pretty colours but if they're prepared to pay and keep people employed and people who don't have lots of money but love the game an opportunity to race than I welcome them with open arms.

The Shelbourne Park is packed every evening/night….you are going to be hard pressed to have a jumps meeting during the week at night time!
Click to expand...

NH needs to come up with a track that can cater for the increasing no. of races that are going to be rained off, obviously those meetings will not be at night. Dundalk has been a resounding success.The Dundalk model should be pursued alsewhere.
 
Maybe I am not making myself clear. I am not against another Dundalk, far from it, another Dundalk elsewere would be fine, but Dundalk does not cater for the horses you want it to cater for right now! If it did, it would only encourage those sort of horses to be in training and then there would be further demand for races to cater for these type of horses. The prize money in Dundalk is super, racing is of a high standard….I have nothing against all weather racing as long as its kept to a high standard.

So they could put another Dundalk in Naas, Cork and Galway and it still will not (and should not) cater for poor low grade horses and thank God for that.

I still do not agree with you, that wanting to maintain a minimum rating of 47 is elitist.
 
Last edited:
Ok we'll have to agree that your wrong and move on :D but I'd like to know what a horse needs to rated to justify its existence ?
 
Elite usually refers to a minority at the top - it's (what I presume to be) a minority at the bottom that's affected here.
 
My interpretation would be that any group that excludes another for being of lesser ability...whether thats financially, socially, physically etc
 
As I said at the beginning of the thread, I agree with Arkwright and wish that they'd implement such procedures over here.

Do we really need Kempton (or Lingfield, or Southwell, or Wolves, or G Leighs for that matter) to stage dross three times a week, as it often does [usually in the winter admittedly] to an empty racecourse, for no prize money? It's getting to the point where there are AW meetings virtually every day throughout the 'jumps' season, and often there are two AW cards staged. All for no prize money, with precious few runners, staged at an empty track. At least if minimum ratings were introduced the standard of racing could gradually be raised, and one or two of these AW meetings a week done away with.

So I can see why Ireland is so desperate not to go down the route of desperation that British racing has.

Implementing such rules in a similar way to the way they are being introduced in Ireland seems the best and fairest way - not least since it gives trainers time to prove that their 42 rated horses aren't as poor as their rating indicates they are. Just limiting horses to a rating of 45 on the flat and 70 over jumps would be a start, at least. Does anyone really want to see animals rated less than that on a racecourse anyway?
 
Last edited:
I think 45 is a fair cut off point say, but i think if they bought in, they should say from 1st Jan 2008, so if you currently had a 40 - 44 rated horse, you do get a chance to prove your better before you're struck off. Look at Young Mick, had they bought a ruling in when he was 43 he would have been banned from racing. Some horses do improve, the problem is in low grade races if you run a poor race for any reason the handicapper drops you very quickly, yet if u run poor for no apparent reason in a 0-80 the hanidcapper leaves u off the same mark, just thinking it was a bad run. I've never seen the fairness in this. horses can have off days and if a horse runs a blinder off say 51, then a stinker off 51, I don't think it should be dropped especially as there is probably a reason for it.
 
Back
Top