Bin Laden

Moehat: that's exactly why he shouldn't have been dumped at sea! The dearly departed (or even the despised departed) should be facing Makkah (Mecca of old), so with all that bobbing about on the ocean wave, his spirit will not only be feeling slightly seasick, but won't find its way too easily. "Are we there yet?" :lol:

Clivex - you're off on your 'all Muslims are mad terrorists' nonsense again, aren't you? Typical Colonel Blimp attitude. A great many Muslims are delighted the man's dead, in the same way that thousands of Iraqis aren't unhappy about Saddam being hanged, and Egyptians are pleased to see the back of the corrupt government which held them in stasis for decades. Hundreds of Muslims have died in the last few months in attempts to overthrow their long-time brutal/corrupt/venal governments. What do they want? Al-Qaeda? The Taliban? No - they want a more level playing field, they want basic human rights, they want a voice in how their countries are governed. In other words, they don't want anything like extremist totalitarianism. Get a grip!
 
clivex said:
Agree marble. And isn't this thread like the guardian at its worst ? A country has clearly been protecting someone who would destroy just about everyone reading this thread given the chance but the sneering is towards the nation that killed him

And as for this "musnt upset themuslims" garbage... Give me strength
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Clive,

Why do people have to be pigeonholed as 'Guardian readers'? You are trying to paint a broad brushstroke over individually held opinions!

Seriously, there is no Guardian conspiracy on this thread and I don't see why that should be brought into it.

Are you going to reveal what paper you read?:)
 
Krizon

Thats out of order and isnt anywhere near what ive been saying. Refering to first post
 
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Nothing in life and politics is ever black and white...it's full of grey areas. If only everyone was like a lady I met the other year who survived the holocaust and has spent her whole life doing good and has a heart full of forgivness, but, alas they're not and I'm not.
 
That's right, Clive of India, any time you're countered it's 'out of order'. Everyone who mentions Muslims in anything other than a condemning manner is a Guardian reader. Tiresome, dear boy, utterly tiresome. Think up something new!

DD: I don't see any answers on here. I think we're too sophisticated now to believe the rhetoric, or perhaps too cynical. Being cynical is good, though - we are blessed by the actions of people like Bradley Manning - I don't care what his grievances, if any, were against his employer - in whistle-blowers, in fact, we have the heroes of the hour. By showing up the inanity of most military campaigns (those military dudes in America aren't too happy with Obama trying to shave billions off their trillions of dollarsworth of a mostly irrelevant and unnecessary budget), and the falsity of the premises advanced by some over-regarded intelligence-gathering, we probably have just as much to fear from our own governments' misled, misguided, and mis-advised foolish adventurism than from the relatively tiny amount of true ill-wishers.
 
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Reading some of the posts on this thread and an image of Alf Garnett materialises in my mind.

Seems there is a lot of it about..............ignorance and bigotry makes the world go around.
 
The main problem I have with this thread, Colin, is that it didn't start with "The Road to the End of the Road for Osama"...

Moehat, that is a moral dilemma, isn't it? We can personally forgive those who trespass against us, but I don't feel anyone else has the right to do it. I can weep buckets for the wickedness visited upon those who suffered under the Nazis, but I can't forgive the regime. That's a gift (I feel) that only the victims of that, or any, crime have the right to make, if they so wish. So I can understand the people who are happy at the death of the person responsible for visiting wickedness upon thousands of people. They can't forgive Bin Laden, because it's not in their gift to do so. They can only applaud a form of justice for those whose deaths he engineered. It'll be up to those who survived to forgive - but while forgiveness is one of the biggest pillars holding up Christian values, it's probably one of the most difficult to honestly and totally achieve. We are also exhorted to extract an eye for an eye, to balance evil with equal justice, so it's a pretty darn hard act to achieve when we're also supposed to exact a form of vengeance at the same time as forgiving.
 
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FFS

Forgive Bin Laden? Is this for real? its not the past victims that are the issue, its what he and AQ would have done given a free reign. Is that so difficult to understand?

They shot themselves in the foot with with the bombings in Jordan and morocco and the meddling in Iraq but without the actions taken we could have had catastrophic consequences. It is absolutely correct to seek and kill the leaders of this organisation on a regular basis. Whats the alternative? Shrug shoulders at the next Madird or 7/7

Unbelievable...

Seems there is a lot of it about..............ignorance and bigotry makes the world go around.
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Perhaps Colin you would like to back up taht comment? perhaps you would like to consider that ignorance and bigotry is precisely what AQ stood for? Perhaps you may have something to say about that on behalf of the jews, christians, gays, women, hindus, shias who were their identified targets for genocide?
 
krizon said:
A great many Muslims are delighted the man's dead, in the same way that thousands of Iraqis aren't unhappy about Saddam being hanged, and Egyptians are pleased to see the back of the corrupt government which held them in stasis for decades. Hundreds of Muslims have died in the last few months in attempts to overthrow their long-time brutal/corrupt/venal governments. What do they want? Al-Qaeda? The Taliban? No - they want a more level playing field, they want basic human rights, they want a voice in how their countries are governed. In other words, they don't want anything like extremist totalitarianism.
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krizon said:

I work with people of many different nationalities and faiths, although the predominant religon, after Christianity, is Islam.

Several of these men and women lost family under Saddam's regime. One in particular has only recently traced his last remaining sister and has just found out what happened to his mother, so his grieving starts all over again, yet he works on with kindness and courtesy to patients and colleagues.

While there are a couple who are rather hurt and angry at the West's attitude to the countries of their birth, the majority are not only devout and tolerant but humane. They too deplore the stances of their countries' governments and have been shocked by the atrocities of groups claiming to represent their faith. Sadly, unlike many of us, several of them have first-hand knowledge of these atrocities too.

As Krizon says, most of these people are from the countries currently undergoing massive upheavals for the sake of a more progressive and tolerant society. That deserves some support, not condemnation, surely?

Not all Christians are good, not all Muslims are bad. Clive has his counterpart in Islam too! Hardliners who call all Christians "Crusaders" and still condemn Christendom for a war that happened some 800 years ago.

I don't condemn Clive for his views, to which he is entitled. We are, after all, lucky enough to live in a society that allows us all to not only have our own opinions but also to voice them without fear of waking up at 2.00 in the morning with a gun in our faces (as happened to a colleague of mine from Zimbabwe).

I don't blame the Americans for going mad with joy over Bin Laden's killing. It may appear vengeful but he was, after all the "face" of 9/11 and therefore the one who, in the group consciousness of America, should pay with his life for the shock, trauma and sheer horror of that dreadful day. Don’t forget, many Americans are quite fundamental in their Christian views and firmly believe in “an eye for an eye”.

Hopefully, when Bin Laden meets his Maker, he will have the error of his ways made clear to him. How disappointed he should be.

In the meantime, the slaying of the culprit may allow America to begin to heal after its terrible ordeal. The shock of it being all the worse because no foreigner had ever struck at its heart on such a scale before.

This is a bit of a rambling post, as I am trying to do a couple of other things at once, so some of my points may seem a bit vague or the contents jumbled, for which I ask your patience.

Doubtless if I have (inadvertently) trodden on any toes, the aggrieved Forumite will feel free to exercise his/her human rights and tell me!
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Redhead.

the inference is that i said all "muslims are bad" That is nowhere stated by myeslf in this or any other post and it is just cynically dropped in by those who have nothing better to say> what is infuriating about such rubbish is that i have to keep coming back to defend and point out

other than that, thats a fair post
 
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Sorry Clive - I didn't mean to infer that, please bear in mind I was doing two things at once after a full day at work (NHS, bank holiday, stonking headache etc).

What I meant to say, and obviously didn't make clear was that it gets presented by one section of the media as a general view of the British and American peoples, but that the media who deplore it tend to forget (or ignore) that such views are also held by many Muslims about us.

I note that Hamm has started a thread on how, in these politically correct (or crippled) times, the one-sidedness of cultural tolerance is becoming increasingly unalanced. I do understand your views and frustrations with that, as my own patience with it is wearing a trifle thin.

Hope I've managed to make myself a bit clearer.

Thanks for your compliment, from you on such matters, it is.
 
Still no photo of the dead body...

They were however able to publish photos of the A-team watching the assassination in real time. Orwell couldn't script this better.

Strange but nice to see Giuliani is the only one of them to come across as close to humane..
 
moehat said:
I'm pleased that he has had the traditional Muslim 'burial'.........
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I would quite happily have seen his corpse minced, fed to a dog, and the resulting turd thrown over a cliff. It would have provided a fitting post-script to the end of this particular individual's contribution to the species.
 
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Hamm said:
Strange but nice to see Giuliani is the only one of them to come across as close to humane..
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Why strange, Hamm?

I suspect that Guiliani's sober, considered opinion is probably reasonably representative of US opinion as a whole, but scenes such as those we've seen from the States (lots of whoopin' and a'hollerin) make much better TV than those of people saying "Hooray" before simply going about their daily business.

I reckon these pictures should be placed in the same context as similar pictures of people burning the Stars and Stripes in lands afar i.e. food for the eye; not the brain - the expressions of the lunatic fringe.

I contend that real people living real lives - regardless of where they come from - just want to get on. Rudi Guiliani represents that, if his comments are anything to go by.
 
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Hamm thought it was pretty cool them all watching, how much better than PS3 games eh?.

If I was such an anti USA person, I guess that it might wind me up too but I'm glad that I live in a country where Internet is allowed and I'm allowed to put what I want on it. :whistle:
 
Thanks redhead....

Agree entirely Grasshopper. Feeding him to the pigs would have been fun though for various reasons.

Harry I thought it was great they watched it and it was a terrificly executed operation from what we can see. They should be extremely proud of themselves. They could have simply shelled the place but made sure that the target was properly dealt with without other casulties. That was very risky in itself.
 
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This is a useful test of Obama's nerve. I sense that he will be strong enough to call time on relationships with this vile state and unless there is a rapid change in tune, then this can be neatly progressed to sanctions and increasing isolation from world economy

Some think it will drive them into the hands of the chinese, but by all accounts they despise the ISI too given their support of muslim insurgents in west China. Needless to say India would happily flatten the place tomorrow

It is a great shame that many decent people from and in that country are being let down by the goverment agencies and state, but on the other hand the responses responses by so much of the population there to sectarian killings of innocents and those that dared to speak out for a degree of religous freedom has been disgusting
 
Yes

It is complex of course and it is seemingly difficult to pinpoint exactly what that country wants. But the latest moves are provocative to say the least
 
Yes, extremely complicated, but just how would Uncle Sam react if a bunch of Pakistan special forces decided to invade and take out some of the redneck leaders that still have a lot of influence over there; and here, come to that?
 
What like Obama? hilary Clinton?

Must have been a bad day for you when bin laden was killed then by the sounds of it

still the thick left has few friends left now other than islamic fascists
 
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