Bloodstock 2011

More knowledgeable people than me will tell me (they always do) if I am wrong, but in my view, what the industry needs is more stallions like Lord Shanakill coming to party, but with everyone covering less mares.

We don't want everyone out of Sadler's Wells and Danzig lines.
 
Bar the Bull said:
More knowledgeable people than me will tell me (they always do) if I am wrong, but in my view, what the industry needs is more stallions like Lord Shanakill coming to party, but with everyone covering less mares.

We don't want everyone out of Sadler's Wells and Danzig lines.
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You are of course correct. It widens the gene pool and strengthens the breed. The so-called breeding best-with-best policy that is slavishly followed by breeders with little clue, is perceived as more certain for short-term results but disastrous for the long-term strength of the breed. Outcrosses from fashionable lines are required for longer term improvement.
 
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Bar the Bull said:
You are incredibly hard to please on bloodstock matters.

Alfred Nobel is a Group 1 winning juvenile!!!!!!
Lord Shanakill is a Group 1 winner! He was a gee hair away from winning the Dewhurst. With no Northern Dancer for a long way back in his pedgiree, and being by a Theatrical mare, he is sure to be popular.
Vale of York won the Breeders Cup Juvenile.

What do you expect connections to do with an asset that will make €500k per year for at least 3 years? How many G1 winning juveniles do not retire to stud?

The two others are more problematic. They did the business on the racecourse, but they didn't race at 2. But they will get mares.
Zebedee is a multiple juvenile group winning sprinter by Invincible Spirit.
Approve won the Gimcrack and Norfolk; placed in the Middle Park and Champagne.
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Yes I am!

That Dewhurst (of Lord Shankill) resembled a listed race.

Vale of York (and I backed him at 35/1 that day) won because all the others went way too fast. He showed before and after his true level (listed).
Alfred Nobel was also finishing down the field in Sales races at 2 and his Group 1 win was nowhere near the usual level of that race.

All opinions!
 
Bar the Bull said:
More knowledgeable people than me will tell me (they always do) if I am wrong, but in my view, what the industry needs is more stallions like Lord Shanakill coming to party, but with everyone covering less mares.

We don't want everyone out of Sadler's Wells and Danzig lines.
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Agree of course..
 
Hamm said:
Yes I am!

That Dewhurst (of Lord Shankill) resembled a listed race.

Vale of York (and I backed him at 35/1 that day) won because all the others went way too fast. He showed before and after his true level (listed).
Alfred Nobel was also finishing down the field in Sales races at 2 and his Group 1 win was nowhere near the usual level of that race.

All opinions!
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So their Grade/Group 1 winning form may not have been 120+. So what?

So what? They shouldn't be stallions, just because their form has a few holes in it?

Lord Shanakill raced 18 times in 3 seasons. He won 5 times, including a Group 1, 2 Group 2's and a Listed race. He placed on 7 further occasions, including in the Lockinge, the St. James's Palace, the Dewhurst and the Morny. He offers variety to breeders. I think he is one of the more exciting stud prospects. I don't care if his Dewhurst was arguably 112 or 120 or whatever. He has enough solid form in the book to be sent to stud.

And even when it comes to form, you are some man to twist facts, Hamm. "Alfred Nobel finished comfortably down the field in sales races at 2". He ran in one sales race. He was drawn on the wrong side. He comfortably won "his race", but had no chance with the other side. He finished 5/22, but 1/13 on his side. He had already won a G2 and a G1.

Vale of York may be one of the weaker Breeders' Cup Juvenile winners, but he was a Breeders' Cup Juvenile winner. Horses with far worse credentials succeed at stud. If you prohibit a horse like him from going to stud, you would only have 15 or 20 new horses each year from UK & Ireland.
 
SteveM said:
You are of course correct. It widens the gene pool and strengthens the breed. The so-called breeding best-with-best policy that is slavishly followed by breeders with little clue, is perceived as more certain for short-term results but disastrous for the long-term strength of the breed. Outcrosses from fashionable lines are required for longer term improvement.
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What do make of the job snow Fairy's breeder has done /doing.

Hamm there are horses with far weaker race records than those ones that have made a success of it. There really is no way of telling who will be a success only guestimates. I usually refer to Danzig when this debate arises, check out his conformation and race record.
 
Bar the Bull said:
So their Grade/Group 1 winning form may not have been 120+. So what?

So what? They shouldn't be stallions, just because their form has a few holes in it?

Lord Shanakill raced 18 times in 3 seasons. He won 5 times, including a Group 1, 2 Group 2's and a Listed race. He placed on 7 further occasions, including in the Lockinge, the St. James's Palace, the Dewhurst and the Morny. He offers variety to breeders. I think he is one of the more exciting stud prospects. I don't care if his Dewhurst was arguably 112 or 120 or whatever. He has enough solid form in the book to be sent to stud.

And even when it comes to form, you are some man to twist facts, Hamm. "Alfred Nobel finished comfortably down the field in sales races at 2". He ran in one sales race. He was drawn on the wrong side. He comfortably won "his race", but had no chance with the other side. He finished 5/22, but 1/13 on his side. He had already won a G2 and a G1.

Vale of York may be one of the weaker Breeders' Cup Juvenile winners, but he was a Breeders' Cup Juvenile winner. Horses with far worse credentials succeed at stud. If you prohibit a horse like him from going to stud, you would only have 15 or 20 new horses each year from UK & Ireland.
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Calm down. I gave an opinion.

My bookie gives me a fortune when my horses wins 'his race'.
 
Sheikh said:
What do make of the job snow Fairy's breeder has done /doing.

Hamm there are horses with far weaker race records than those ones that have made a success of it. There really is no way of telling who will be a success only guestimates. I usually refer to Danzig when this debate arises, check out his conformation and race record.
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Yep, realise that of course - I just don't see even in that respect what that group listed have to offer..
 
Hamm said:
Calm down. I gave an opinion.

My bookie gives me a fortune when my horses wins 'his race'.
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I wasn't talking about bookmakers' paying out. I was talking about his ability as a racehorse, which I believe is better defined by my true account of what happened, rather than you saying that he "finished comfortably down the field in sales races at 2".
 
A draw is an aspect of a race, not something to be ignored. Sea the Stars ran into all manners of trouble in his Arc - didn't stop him getting up comfortably. A bad draw stopped Alfred Nobel winning a SALES RACE. Top horse, they should have retired him sooner. Rare genes as well.
 
Okay, so he is not as good as Sea the Stars. Barring the two 2yo retirees, the horses that you mentioned are worth their place at stud. It is not the sole preserve of horses rated over 120. We need variety in the breed.

Alfred Nobel was beaten in a SALES RACE.
Sea the Stars was beaten in a MAIDEN.

I assume your latter comment is sarcastic. What is wrong with being by Danehill Dancer (who you would probably have said was unworthy of a place at stud)? Because there is nothing wrong with the bottom half of his pedigree. His grandam was second in the Irish Champion Stakes, and she is a half-sister to New Approach. His dam was a winner. His third dam is Park Express. This is a serious family.

It is very frustrating that you make throwaway remarks, which are often not true, or exaggarated. You don't admit that you are wrong, and then continue to pick away at the edges of any arguement.

So you imply that Alfred Nobel's place at stud is compromised by the fact that he finished 5th in a sales race (not more than one). When I point out negating factors, you say he should have overcome them.

If he was perfect, he wouldn't be priced at five grand. Breeders need horses priced cheaply, as not everyone can afford to send their horses to Galileo, High Chaparall and Sea the Stars.
 
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Maybe you think horses who didn't train on at 3 and failed to win past July in their juvenile year (or run even a half decent race) should become stallions; I don't, far from it.
 
SteveM said:
Snow Fairy is very decent and not totally conventional close up in her pedigree. Which in her case is a good thing.
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I was thinking of your point re: the longer term future of the thoroughbred. She is also responsible for Big Bad Bob from the same family. Results she has achieved from selective non fashionable matings producing talented tough horses. Both are buy Turn to/Roberto line stallions
 
Sheikh said:
I was thinking of your point re: the longer term future of the thoroughbred. She is also responsible for Big Bad Bob from the same family. Results she has achieved from selective non fashionable matings producing talented tough horses. Both are buy Turn to/Roberto line stallions
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Not sure I understand you correctly Sheikh. The Snow Fairy I was talking about is still in training with Ed Dunlop. :confused:
 
The Oaks winner (Snow fairy) is out of a family that Ms.Cristina Patino has cultivated, and Elusive Pimpernel is a member of it, as is the Group 3 winner Big Bad Bob, a half-sister to the Oaks winner’s dam. By the way, the sire of the Oaks winner, Intikhab, is a Roberto-line horse like Big Bad Bob, whom Ms. Patino also bred and raced
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