Bloodstock Assistance Required

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Ballydoyle

At the Start
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Apr 24, 2005
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As there are some of you in the know, just wondered what your thoughts would be on the breeding front for a Golan mare out of a Geiger Counter mare. Horse in question won a minor race in France over 9f but is related to winners. This would be her maiden season to be bred. She is now retired due to bleeding heavily in her last race.

The price range is £1000 - £2500 with a lean towards NH future offspring.

So far Tobougg has been mentioned, along with Bollin Eric and Dr Massini.

Has to be UK based too.

Looking forward to any assistance.
 
DR MASSINI x a bleeder? Hmmm... interesting. If it started at all, it might not get too far if there's a predisposition to start snottering blood, b/d. If you're thinking of NH, where there's a much stronger reliance on respirational stamina, you'd have to wonder about the mare continuing to pass on a bleeding influence.

I'd put her to a sport horse - they're all the rage, and with so much available from Ireland and France on the market for NH horses now, as soon as anyone realises she bleeds, I doubt they'd be too keen on the offspring, however dirt cheap you're looking at. And if you're going for NH foals, then why look at Flat sires? I'd try to breed in healthy airways and decent racing attitudes.

(But that's because Songsheet and I wouldn't look at anything with a known unsoundness, b/d - Miesque and Sheikh may have different ideas for you.)
 
Thanks Kri - she isnt actually my horse but a syndicate I have contact with. I was surprised re the stallions they have spoken about but Tobougg seems to be getting a fair few jumpers.

Not sure how often she has bled before her last race but like I said its not my decision I just wondered if anyone had better ideas than the syndicate!
 
If they want jumpers, they ought to go to proven jumps stallions. That way, at least they'll know that the sire has gone the distance they're looking for, with appropriate respiratory strength. If she has that weakness, they want to try to diminish its possibility of being passed along to any of her foals. Jumps-wise, there are good chaps available like APPLE TREE (Dad of LOUGH DERG and POMME TIEPY) and there's the exciting prospect of the hardy grey GEORDIELAND, retiring at a well-seasoned 10 for the 2012 season. I don't know what his start price will be. He'll be at Beech Tree Stud in Somerset with AT and also TAMURE, who is now the sire of quite a number of jumps winners. (Sorry, haven't looked up their site to see prices.)

Thing is, it is not a cheap option taking up breeding, even syndicated, so they'll want to produce animals that people will be interested in buying - even if it's their intention to keep the produce for racing, it's a long way to go before anything eventually gets to the track, where they at least want to give themselves a chance of a return on their investment.

But good luck, whichever way they go!
 
Not another one! Really? In that case, def not!!! I never read anything about that, Moe. He finished up in 2009 with a tendon strain (which is why he took 2010 out) and returned to finish sore (probably because the ground was agin him), but I must admit to not seeing any remarks about bleeding by Jamie Osborne.
 
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He broke a blood vessel in the Melbourne Cup.

Take that and smoke it Kirzon, think you know it all.
 
Honestly? Tell them to cut their losses and sell the mare now. A bleeder is a poor choice to start breeding NH progeny from and chosing flat stallions (some admittedly dual purpose) is not going to help them out.

If they insist on breeding they could so worse than look at Bach who stands alongside Dr.Massni at Dunraven.
 
Thanks for the feedbac - its a relatively new syndicate who are more enthusiastic than anything else and I wont be joining any breeding syndicate until they have a mare that has more to show than UU :)

Its probably impossible to find a totally sound stallion or mare these days right?! Although I agree with the theory of not breeding IN any problems - a bit like trying to breed out any hip probs with my lab :)
 
OK FWIW I don't believe that bleeding is hereditary. When I worked for a very good vet in the US in the 90's he excelled in getting his trainers to claim bleeders so that they could be treated. His theory was that horses bled for a reason - stress. And that stress must come from somewhere - be it respiratory infection or physical problem. He was so successful in these "bleeder claims" that the Horse racing board in Maryland where he was practicing, dope tested every runner from the stables he worked for - they were convinced he was giving them something illegal. He wasn't. Initially, he would scope the horse and if he found traces of an infection, he would administer large doses of anti-biotics. Failing that, I would run the horse up and down the shed-row with him watching until he could spot the problem. One of the biggest issues we found was with the hind limbs especially the joints. He would then look at the quality of the joint fliud by sticking in a sterilised needle. If there were any traces of blood indicating a potential chip, he would treat the horse. In one case the horse had practically no joint fluid at all. After treatment, this horse won its next four races. And he no longer bled.

In all the time I worked for him, I never knew him get a case wrong.

So I don't believe they pass on bleeding. What I do think is that horses pass on an unsoundness which doesn't get treated and the cycle of stress on the horse and thus bleeding continues.

In a separate case, I used to ride out an old pointer who beld when he was separated from his friends and had to go off and work on his own - even at a light canter. But he never bled racing as he was totally relaxed about it.
 
Bleeding (Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage) is abolutely heriditary - it has been clinically proven to have a 0.4 heritability factor. That is highly significant. For comparison OCD has a heritability of about 0.17.

Read this Bloodhorse article and the associated paper for further info.
 
Miesque said:
Bleeding (Exercise Induced Pulmonary Hemorrhage) is abolutely heriditary - it has been clinically proven to have a 0.4 heritability factor. That is highly significant. For comparison OCD has a heritability of about 0.17.

Read this Bloodhorse article and the associated paper for further info.
Click to expand...


The prevalence of EIPH varies with the method used to detect it and the frequency with which horses
are examined. Almost all Thoroughbred racehorses in active training have hemosiderophages in bronchoalveolar lavage fluid, indicating that all have some degree of EIPH.
KENNETH W. HINCHCLIFF
The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio

....... by the way it is almost non existent in draught horses.. perhaps we should breed them for racing......:rolleyes:

Dr Massini looks a great cross for the Mare in question..;)
 
I think Id want to know how often the horse has bled before I got in a panic about breeding from her or not - if it was after a really hard race or stressful situation then i wouldnt be as worried as if it was a relatively regular thing.

as an aside - I dont know anything about the mare at all - is she a NH mare?? if she is, then my logic (which is dodgy at the best of times) would absolutely be to use a middle distance flat stallion on her....

(but this is coming from someone who has a sprint mare that she would dearly love to make a 2mile chaser out of,but really dont think I will manage it so am sticking to sprinters....)
 
trudij said:
I think Id want to know how often the horse has bled before I got in a panic about breeding from her or not - if it was after a really hard race or stressful situation then i wouldnt be as worried as if it was a relatively regular thing.

as an aside - I dont know anything about the mare at all - is she a NH mare?? if she is, then my logic (which is dodgy at the best of times) would absolutely be to use a middle distance flat stallion on her....

(but this is coming from someone who has a sprint mare that she would dearly love to make a 2mile chaser out of,but really dont think I will manage it so am sticking to sprinters....)
Click to expand...
If it's who I think it is Trudi she's an ex-French mare who won the flat over there in 2010 but hadn't done much for her previous trainer was bought with a NH career in mind.
 
Thought that's why Geordieland lived outside for most of the year? Must have got mixed up with something else I heard. [Just googled it; he bled in the 2006 Melbourne Cup]
 
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Geordieland was confirmed to have bled in the Melbourne Cup. Given the way he curled up under pressure numerous times in this country, it's very hard to believe that was an isolated incident.
 
Miesque said:
If they insist on breeding they could so worse than look at Bach who stands alongside Dr.Massni at Dunraven.
Click to expand...

Bach wouldn't be well liked by buyers though. I think Gold Well will make it as a stallion. No idea if he's suitable for the mare. Or go for one of the sires who will have his first runners next season. He will be cheap now, but could look an inspired choice in a year. A bit like Gold Well last year. Kicking myself I didn't buy one when told about him.
 
DJ - when did GEORDIELAND curl up numerous times? There are two races where he failed to shine - after one, he had done a tendon and was out for over a year (normal treatment) and after his comeback, he finished sore. He has a very good race record and to have bled once in the Antipodes doesn't mean the horse is a bleeder. He may have had an undetected infection at the time, or have been physically stressed by the climate/journey, just as happens as per jinny/j's post. One instance of bleeding - like one instance of going lame among so many stallions hived off at three years of age - doesn't point to anything significant. It's repeated bouts of it, or as this mare seems to have suffered, according to b/d, that would be of concern.
 
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As far as I am aware, she only bled the once on her last start. She had run less than 2 weeks before on her debut in the country/for trainer/owner and I doubt that they would have run her that quickly if she was a confirmed bleeder. Sorry if my original post was ambiguous re the number of times she is known to have bled.

I think the noises from the syndicate are that she will go to either Tobougg or Dr Massini - but will let people know so they can debate the ethics and possible outcome!!

Still its interesting to see everyones ideas and thought processes when it comes to approaching breeding. Perhaps a little more thought on my side in my fantasy racing might be of benefit!!
 
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