BNP on Question Time

Gareth, there is nothing Nanny state about that.

The state actively disincentivising people from doing something as basic to human existence as procreation is about as Nanny state as it gets.

Not sure if you've noticed but we have condoms and birth control pills.

And the rising rate of terminations show that they're not being used even by people who don't want children in the first place!

Does anyone know how much extra in benefits an unemployed couple get upon the birth of their third child?
 
Hi Gareth, depends on your definition of nanny state!! Allowing people to get into situations they cannot deal with then bailing them out and giving them reasons to carry on down this path could also be considered nanny state?!

Maybe they are but if you make a mistake the option is there..

I have no idea on the answer to your question to be honest as I have no kids!
 
"Rising rate of terminations" - I suppose that's a bit more honest than having a baby, knowing it will be torn away from you to be brought up by adoptive parents, which was society's 'answer' to fallen girls right up to the 1960s, as few families wanted to cope with the shame of little bastards. The rising rate now also includes foetuses with deformities and conditions such as spina bifida, Down's Syndrome, etc., Gareth - thanks to the ability of today's scanners and tests to show these earlier than ever, many couples are deciding not to cope with disabled children, but to terminate the foetus and hope to have a more able child in the future. You like pinning people down to exactitudes, but you've made a wildly sweeping statement there, without detailing the reasons for some of the rise. What are the rates of increase per capita, anyway? If the world's population has trebled in the past 40 years, as some statistics proclaim, is the rise not simply in ratio to the rise in growth?
 
Actually, the number of terminations in England and Wales fell slightly for the first time last year, sitting at just under 200k. As a reference, The number of live births in England and Wales last year was a little over 700k. The termination numbers include some involving women who are not resident in England and Wales, but I think we can take the ratio of 7:2 as being a good rough estimate.

Terminations due to deformity, congenital defects and conditions such as Down's Syndrome would only make up a small percentage of these. For example, there were around 1800 cases of Down's detected last year.

So my point remains: if so many women who fall pregnant that don't want to be aren't using effective contraception, why would you expect that a financial disincentive would have any effect, especially amongst those who do want another child?
 
I'd surmise that the rise in terminations probably has more than a little to do with the increasing promiscuity of young teenagers (and disconcertingly even younger than that!) rather than adults aware of the financial incentives but not interested in receiving them. There have to be large numbers of teenagers who are frog-marched to the local abortion clinic by their parents. However there are all sorts of other reasons why teenagers choose to get pregnant, being offered a council flat often coming top of the list. It is entirely possible that if said teenagers didn't think that the state would look after them by giving them money to live on as well as somewhere to live that they wouldn't be quite so keen on having their 'bundle of joy'.
 
Yes, I'd imagine that thousands of young girls go through terminations now, Shadz, as you say. I can honestly remember only one girl leaving my school (age 13 or 14) due to pregnancy, which would, it seems, be a minor miracle these days. There's also always been termination tourism with Irish girls coming over to get shot of their unwanted burdens, and I wouldn't wonder that a number also come in from the 'New Europe' for the same reasons - clean, safe clinics and good care, rather than the local abortionist's efforts with a wire probe. I don't know if countries like Romania still ban terminations or whether that edict was lifted after Ceasescu (sp?) regime fell, but even so, conditions here must be rather more humane.

Clivex - hmmm, I'm probably close to being with you on that one. (This must stop - I think we've had concord twice this week!) It doesn't seem to prevent the worst of the country's parents from producing a regular issue of neglected and abused children - if the money's supposed to help care for them better, it doesn't seem to do that. And for those who can nurture their offspring properly, I'd say the pay-outs are unnecessary. It seems to be abused by serial mothers who so often end up with their malnourished, tatty and battered kids being taken into the State's care, anyway.
 
I had two girls in my year leave to have babies at 14; it was pretty much unheard of at the time and not many could quite believe it, I'm sure. We certainly weren't all at it at the time; not for another good 3 or 4 years!
 
Poverty isn't helped by governments bunging parents hand-outs which are supposed to help their children, though, mrussell - poverty is eroded by insisting that children stay in school, learn a vocation, and then get into work. It's not eroded by breeding six, seven, eight kids by assorted or unknown sires, smoking, drinking, and watching tv soaps all day - but that's a life which is often lived, while the State-funded kids still go hungry, neglected, unwashed and unsupervised. That's why so many of them are roaming the streets in the small hours of the morning, stoned or stonked at age 12. They probably do count as 'poor' but they're mainly 'poor' because their parents don't, frankly, give a damn about them.

There's been a huge reduction in what was once real poverty, the sort that old b&w photos show existed in the early decades of the last century - where my schoolteacher grandmother wept at the sight of her little ones arriving for class without shoes, or even little clogs, on their filthy feet. And again when, aged about 9 or 10, they had to leave because their parents insisted they work. They were destined for the factory floors, the mines, the heavy industries, domestic service if they were 'lucky' - try getting today's 'poor' kids into any jobs, and it's impossible. They're not wanted because they haven't been educated. They haven't been educated because their parents, far from taking them away at 9 or 10 from their schools, have failed to insist that they attend them. They don't have to worry about going out to find work, because the parents are paid to keep them, and after that, no problem - the 'benefits' will take over. Sorted.
 
An interesting debate re-poverty.

One of David Cameron's ideas was (still is?) to make people have a better quality of life (or to give people the chance of a better way of life), thus the 'social' side to a modern day Conservative Party.

So, if by cutting child benefits, that child goes out and starts stealing to eat and cloth themselves, thereby committing crime and promoting a disorderly and irresponsible society, are people to the right of the spectrum (or in this case the Tories) fulfilling their social committments which they have promised they will not neglect in trying to mend our 'broken society'?

Or does your social committments only come in to play when your trying to prove you've changed; once your realise its the deficit which is the most important thing your government has to tackle it all goes out the window?

Or in plain English, what are people (including on here) going to actually do about this, in a fair way, other than saying what we already know, welfare Britain has gone too far? I tell you what I do, I go out on a daily basis and work with people with severe mental health problems, looking for projects to get them involved in, many work related. Many have lost their skills, and the idea that one day they're claiming benefits and the next they're in 9-5 jobs is a bit silly; in the real world its not as easy at that, people (in this case the area of mental health) need to build up to get themselves not only well but in a position to hold down a job. Of course there's fraudsters swindling the state, but anyone and everyone from all sides of the political landscape should realise there are people who have had serious illnesses who are entitled to claim benefit or maybe just are having trouble finding a job and therefore on Jobseekers, and it is them your going to see jumping off of cliffs because of some of the proposals on this thread, not the fraudsters who will probably just go out happily and find a job once the games up!

I could go on and on, but it's too early in the morning.

My thought of the day - if something bothers you that much go out and 'pro-actively' help change it!

What did John F Kennedy once say? It would apply to the preachers about welfare Britain and those falsely claiming benefit actually.
 
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That's an interesting post.
So much better than denigrating the poor, who, as was said, are always with us.

Someone famous ( I can't recall who) said, in response to the question 'what is the aim of economics:' -
"The eradication of poverty."
 
Who has denigrated the poor?

Child benefit is not means tested. The bulk of it goes to people who do not require it.

Having a child is a choice. Mental illness (good post Martin), loss of work, old age and disablement is not a choice.

There is no justification for this benefit at all and in this time of drastic cuts required in the budget this should be abandoned immediately
 
How often does the child actually profit from this benefit anyway?! I worked in a Post Office as a teenager and would watch streams of people claim their child benefits then turn to the other counter and spend the lot on cigarettes and lottery scratchcards.
 
I think we've touched on a key point. Child benefit might be a prime example of something that needs to be abandoned for a certain bracket of earners because it encourages abuse of the system, but we should also understand that a middle class man on fifty grand a year living in central London is exactly the same lazy barsteward for claiming it as the woman living with 3 kids on a council estate.

That leads you on to the government, and the way they've encouraged welfare dependancy/abuse of the system. It never really mattered until the wheels started to come off the economy a couple years ago - but it should have mattered the day they came into power in 1997, and to be fair to them every government who came before. New Labour would point to the 'new deal', but as we know that didn't exactly tackle poverty of aspiration amongst the most idle segments of society.

In my opinion, it should probably be linked to a needs-based benefit, but beware you might then find yourself in a position where 400 MP's apply for it....:rolleyes:
 
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How often does the child actually profit from this benefit anyway?! I worked in a Post Office as a teenager and would watch streams of people claim their child benefits then turn to the other counter and spend the lot on cigarettes and lottery scratchcards.

I didn't realise lottery scratchcards had been going that long...:)
 
I think we've touched on a key point. Child benefit might be a prime example of something that needs to be abandoned for a certain bracket of earners because it encourages abuse of the system, but we should also understand that a middle class man on fifty grand a year living in central London is exactly the same lazy barsteward for claiming it as the woman living with 3 kids on a council estate.

It may surprise you to learn that virtually all of the customers blowing their child benefit money (and dole money, I kid you not!) were the 'women living in council estates with 3 kids'.

Colin, DO - yes, they have been going for that long! I remember when the scratchcard terminals were fitted in the shop; it must have been around 1993-1994.
 
It may surprise you to learn that virtually all of the customers blowing their child benefit money (and dole money, I kid you not!) were the 'women living in council estates with 3 kids'.
Hmm, it doesn't surprise me at all, but what do we do?

Ban bookies, chippies, pubs, cigetrette terminals, even ban having kids, because people may use these outlets who are spending money that is not technically theirs? If the man on 50k a year saves his money up and every six months uses his child benefit getting a vice (which you won't tend to see in the queue of a post office), does that mean he has the moral highground over the woman living in the council estate with three kids that you seem to know a lot about?

No, he really shouldn't be getting the benefit, and if the one's that do want to spend the little they get to live on buying scratchcards then they will live without what they need and pay the price. Just like someone who works and blows their money (probably a bit more money than someone on the dole as well) on a night out and some cocaine at the weekend has to.

If you want to take it to a high level, then ask yourself a high level question. Do you think in a time when we have several million unemployed, hardly any jobs and/or people being layed off, a massive deficit which any government are going to have to reduce by cutting the public sector, that it is the appropriate time to abolish the welfare state? To me the answer is no, you should try and halt the welfare state when jobs do become available, when the economy is growing, and when things are in a generally better state than they are now.

Whether a leftie tree hugging argument or not, that (in my opinion) is the reality of where the country is at now.
 
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a massive deficit which any government are going to have to reduce by cutting the public sector, that it is the appropriate time to abolish the welfare state

might not be leftie tree hugging but is certainly left wing economic management...

Child benefit is not an essential component of the welfare state. It is needlessly paid to those who have made their own economic decision to have children and should thus.

No benefit should be paid to those who have made a commitment they are forced to do

A benefit that is being paid largely to people that do not require it (and i would guess its about 80-90% of recipients) is a waste of taxpayers money at a crucial time

It is NOT welfare

it is not more justifiable than the old mortgage tax relief. Possibly less so

Government could save a fortune by scrapping this rubbish along with

- an immediate reduction in the goverment employees pensions. I would slash them by 30% at least

- redundancies of god knows how many beareaucratic civil service rubbish jobs. Raise hours to 40 hours a week and cut their holidays to private sector levels. Hammer sick leave

- Massive scaling back of useless higher education whereby illiterate divs can get three A levels simply for turning up

All three would lead to strong tax cuts and massive stimulus for the economy
 
Martin, I'm not speculating on what, if anything, should be done about the situation; I'm making an observation in the context that a "council estate woman with 3 kids" [your words] needs child benefit more than " a middle class man on fifty grand a year living in central London" [again, your words] and suggesting that a "certain bracket of earners" become ineligible to receive child benefit. The observation also applies in the context that if child benefit were abandoned, poverty would increase.
 
might not be leftie tree hugging but is certainly left wing economic management...
But how have you managed to miss the overall point I was making, Clive? Quoting one sentence is surely meaningless if you don't take into consideration the quote as a whole. I think we're getting mixed up on different issues here tbh. Anyone in poverty having a child to top up their income via child benefit is a moronic person and I completely denounce them, I hope thats clear enough.

As for sweeping generalisations about every man, woman and child on benefit, well i'll let others do that.
 
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