BNP on Question Time

One of the problems we have in this country is that we have lost people that used to leave school and go straight into manual labour

We have made exams so easy now that that we have kidded a complete generation of young people that they are Einstein. Even when youngsters fail to gain qualifications at school..they then go to college to try and gain them there..when in fact..the truth is..they just aren't bright enough.

A lot of youngsters are so convinced that they are academics just because they have a load of GCSE's...eleven plus would rate as a GCSE pass these days.

So you have a load of young people with bits of paper who will not accept manual work as they believe it is beneath their abilities

Someone is therefore going come forward from elsewhere to take this work.

There is a big gap in the..what people are prepared to do for a job..scenario.
 
Gareth, you cannot misinterpret a simple English word and what the office of immigration defines itself by. If you're going to chuck correct wording out of the window, then there is no such thing as an immigrant, there is no such thing as an asylum seeker, no such thing as an 'illegal' immigrant/overstayer/alien, blah, blah, blah.

Yes, we are all brothers and sisters under the sun, etc. However, while it would be jolly nice if governments wouldn't set against other governments, tribes wouldn't set against other tribes, and neighbours would get on with each other, it isn't happening and One World doesn't exist other than as a pop fantasy. So, as there are national, racial, educational, and professional definitions abounding, I'll stay with what I know appears to be understood by everyone else on this forum, yourself excluded.

There are any amount of anecdotes about people staying on and becoming residents, or even taking up British nationality - but if they did not APPLY FOR IMMIGRATION STATUS, they're not immigrants! Feck me, I can't make things any simpler for you, Gareth!
 
The term 'immigration' is used in a a much wider sense in migration statistics.

This is the Eurostat definition:

‘Immigration’ means an action by which a person establishes his
or her usual residence in the territory of the country for a period
that is, or is expected to be, of at least twelve months, having
previously been usually resident in another country.
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And this is the UK definition:

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) currently produces estimates of long-term migration, that is estimates of arrivals of overseas residents in the UK and departures of UK residents overseas for twelve months or more
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In other words, any movements between countries for a period of twelve months or more is classified as long-term, and short-term migration refers to people moving for periods shorter than that.

Most of the Poles, Lithuanians and Latvians who came to Ireland, got jobs and went home again in large numbers when work dried up were immigrants because they stayed more than twelve months and could have stayed indefinitely.

They are an interesting case study because they went to Ireland in order to work. Almost none of them were on the dole and most of those who lost their jobs in the downturn have chosen not to stay.

People don't move around or hang around purely for the sake of social welfare benefits. If they did, then Ireland would be full of UK pensioners, because the state pension is more than twice as high.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
The ladies who clean my office block aren't seasonal workers. They're not working on fixed-term projects. Did they leave everything behind them when they came here? Yes. Will they be here forever? They don't even know that. When people moan about immigrants, are they talking about people like them - unskilled, weak English, living in areas where there's lots of other people in the same situation? You bet they are. Is the fact that they're hard workers who are willing to do a menial job at a price that doesn't interest too many in the domestic workforce ignored when a handy scapegoat is required? Of course.
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EC1 said:
One of the problems we have in this country is that we have lost people that used to leave school and go straight into manual labour

We have made exams so easy now that that we have kidded a complete generation of young people that they are Einstein. Even when youngsters fail to gain qualifications at school..they then go to college to try and gain them there..when in fact..the truth is..they just aren't bright enough.

A lot of youngsters are so convinced that they are academics just because they have a load of GCSE's...eleven plus would rate as a GCSE pass these days.

So you have a load of young people with bits of paper who will not accept manual work as they believe it is beneath their abilities

Someone is therefore going come forward from elsewhere to take this work.

There is a big gap in the..what people are prepared to do for a job..scenario.
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Absolutely, and well said. It is a sad fact that a lot of people in Britain nowadays DO find menial or manual work beneath them; if it wasn't for the Australians working behind bars or the Poles cleaning offices or the Poles/Ukranianians/Indians working in racing yards, where would we be? You can bet your bottom dollar that those good British people languishing on their sofas and drawing the dole won't be jumping up and offering to work behind a bar, clean an office or work in a racing yard. It is a known fact that staff HAD to be shipped in from abroad to work in racing yards when there was (and often still is) a crisis with a major lack of staff in the industry about ten years ago. I have worked with (or ridden out with) Chileans, Poles, Czechs, Indians, Pakistanis, Ukrainians, South Africans - you name it.
 
Interesting points.

I wonder what you all make of the fact that here in Geneva, if you are fired/made redundant, you get between 70 and 80% of your salary for upto 2 years. I can't imagine that system would work in the UK!
 
To an extent they have kept the economy efficient during the recession as well in that many are now leaving and those staying are more flexible about their employment conditions than would generally be the case within the workforce*.

*citation needed
 
They are an interesting case study because they went to Ireland in order to work. Almost none of them were on the dole and most of those who lost their jobs in the downturn have chosen not to stay.

People don't move around or hang around purely for the sake of social welfare benefits. If they did, then Ireland would be full of UK pensioners, because the state pension is more than twice as high.
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Complete rubbish. You telling me that Abu Hamza for instance will give up his £500k rent paid house and £1000 a month in benefits to work in mcdonalds? Of course there are some that move looking for how the system can be exploited.

As for the eastern europeans, the issue for many is the incumbents in jobs which would be taken by uk nationals. Plumbing is the obvious example but I have noticed this in finance too this year and there is enormous competition for jobs in that area at the present time. The point for Uk nationals is that their wages and chances are being squeezed, to the benefit of the employers.
 
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It's a vicious circle.

Employers won't pay the going rate so tradespeople will seek out jobs where they feel they're getting their due.

In countries where wages are generally much lower the employers' offer might be attractive to them, therefore they come over. Unfortunately, though, it tends to mean greater profits to the employer and fewer opportunities for nationals.

Then there's the issue of workmanship. My wife's school underwent a refurb that lasted a few years. It was painfully slow and nothing seemed to be getting done quickly, the tradesmen were late, slow, loud and disruptive to the work being done in school. And a lot of them were trying to 'befriend' the girl pupils.

The contractor was sacked and the new one brought in a team of Polish workers. They were punctual, polite, efficient and fast, and the refurb was completed less than a year later. A couple of the guys were assigned to re-fit my wife's new office (there were a couple of problems with the layout due to poor design by the architects). She said nothing was a bother to them. Anything she asked them to do they did so with a smile. Everybody around the school thought they were brilliant. Apparently they thought they were being very well paid for the work they were doing.

I've had to take hotel accom a number of times to allow me to fulfil work commitments. The hotel I use employs eastern European immigrants (mainly Poles)and they are a breath of fresh air compared with the sullen faces of the locals.
 
Hamm said:
Interesting points.

I wonder what you all make of the fact that here in Geneva, if you are fired/made redundant, you get between 70 and 80% of your salary for upto 2 years. I can't imagine that system would work in the UK!
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I would chuck our useless manager in the lake tomorrow!
 
DO: that seems to be a recurring theme with Polish workers. A friend of mine went to work, ostensibly as a secretary-cum-clerk for a company turning the poorhouse in Midhurst into a number of high-priced, top-end apartments. The English project manager worked from about 10 am to 3 pm, clocking off extra early on Fridays "because I've got to get home to my family in Essex", and increasingly loading her with a widening variety of jobs, which finally included materials orders, checking, and snagging lists.

The British workers thieved like bandits - their supervisor, she found, had secreted several lavatories to a store room to take out one at a time in the back of his car. The Poles arrived promptly, worked right to the end of each day, and produced the high standards of work expected. The British plumbers, on the other hand, put in some pipes so badly that a woman with a £450,000 apartment found mould growing on her bedroom wall, where the leaks had come through.

I'm not saying it's always thus, though: an Indian family who own the end-terrace across the road from my own flat have been trying to have three triple-aspect sash windows installed, in hardwood. I watched with interest when the first of these was offered up to the large hole in the wall several weeks ago, and noted that it wouldn't fit. Cutting a saga down a bit, none of the windows fitted. None had been made in hardwood - they'd been made in cheap pine, but charged as hardwood. They all went back and the job's now being done at a loss by the company making the windows. I saw the wife the other day and commiserated with her on how long the job was taking, tut-tutting over British incompetence. She laughed, wryly, and said, "Actually, they're Indian!"
 
clivex said:
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Complete rubbish. You telling me that Abu Hamza for instance will give up his £500k rent paid house and £1000 a month in benefits to work in mcdonalds? Of course there are some that move looking for how the system can be exploited.

As for the eastern europeans, the issue for many is the incumbents in jobs which would be taken by uk nationals. Plumbing is the obvious example but I have noticed this in finance too this year and there is enormous competition for jobs in that area at the present time. The point for Uk nationals is that their wages and chances are being squeezed, to the benefit of the employers.
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So you think Abu Hamza came to the UK to avail of social welfare benefits, rather than to spread his message? Even if you answer in the affirmative, he's hardly the most typical example of a migrant. :rolleyes:

He does very well out of the system but I think he is a most unlikely welfare tourist.

As for immigrant labour undercutting the locals, I accept that this is one of the issues moving people to listen to the BNP. One easily introduced measure that would start to address this problem would be to enforce labour legislation rigorously. That way at least nobody would be allowed to pay below the minimum wage or fail to provide minimum standards of health and safety.
 
Well maybe not Grey :)

Its complex and there are abuses, but there always will be...

Can i bring up the story of the nice Polish accountant i recently worked with who was fcking useless?
 
Grey, given where you work, I'm amazed that such enforcements aren't not only already in force, but underpinned by at least three handbooks on the subject! There must surely be some policies in place to enforce labour legislation - perhaps there's a 'selective' (that means 'corrupt' in plain English) process involved in applying them?

But it'd be wrong to assume that foreign workers are always undercutting locals or denying them jobs. I stopped to chat with a young woman who was cleaning our streets last year. She turned out to be Polish and I asked, well meaningly, if she couldn't get a 'nicer' job - like the young Polish man working in a nearby convenience store which I used? She asked how much it paid and when I told her it was £4.50 an hour, she laughed. She was already earning a tenner an hour, thank you, and £12 an hour on weekends. Most of the street cleaners, bar some very grizzled old locals, are young foreigners, as are many of the traffic wardens, catering staff, and taxi drivers. The latter have usually been here for decades and number among those I've asked Lebanese, Afghans, Iraqis, Somalis, Egyptians, Indians, Pakistanis, Filipino, etc. One thing that many of them shared was an escape from wars or conflicts, or, in the case of some, an inability to prosper nationally due to corruption and nepotism. If there were far fewer such difficulties in much of the developing world, there might be far fewer people seeking sanctuary and opportunity in the UK. America, it seems, isn't everyone's dream!
 
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Grey, given where you work, I'm amazed that such enforcements aren't not only already in force, but underpinned by at least three handbooks on the subject! There must surely be some policies in place to enforce labour legislation - perhaps there's a 'selective' (that means 'corrupt' in plain English) process involved in applying them?
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The setting of minimum wages, holiday entitlement, etc is a matter for national governments, and so is the responsibility for enforcement.
 
So there are policies in place to enforce labour legislation, just the possibly selective lack of will to employ them.
 
Personally it's career benefits people who get on my nerves regardless of their colour. The government has questions to answer on this in my opinion - sounds radical but I would limit the number of kids a family can have on benefits. Clearly it could not be retrospective but it would stop those ill equipped idiots breeding even more socially ill equipped idiots who clog up our society - Where I live this is predominantly white british people and half of them steal to feed whatever their chosen drug habit of choice is. Blame the drugs people cry, bollocks, blame the parents. I'm 29, earn a good living, own my own house but I still don't feel ready to bring a child into the world yet teenagers with no money or career prospects are?

Immigration is also an issue, not because I have anything against people trying to make a better live for themselves but the clear lack of thought, planning and ongoing management by the government... Oh and also their lack of testicles shown on the issue. If there are too many people in the country and the economy can't support them then it's quite a simple decision. It's not racist, it's called acting for the greater good. A principle which seems to have been forgotten these days. If you're zealous enough and shout loud enough and it gets in the papers, you'll probably get what you want. Even if the vast majority don't.
 
Aragorn said:
The government has questions to answer on this in my opinion - sounds radical but I would limit the number of kids a family can have on benefits.
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Wait until those who decry the nanny state hear that!

BTW, how do you propose to stop people having sex?

If there are too many people in the country and the economy can't support them then it's quite a simple decision.
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How many people is too many? And given that net immigration tends to go up when the economy grows, and falls when the economy recesses (simple supply and demand), why is it such a hot-button subject?
 
From what I can see Aragorn is saying limit the amount of kids per family who will be eligible for child benefits, not turning the place into little China and having a one child rule!! Possibly not such a bad idea actually.

I too see all these teenage mums and wonder what on earth is going on in their heads. Watching one of my closest friends finding it hard at the moment with her six month old baby (she's 32 and her husband is very supportive as well) I can only imagine that these teenage mums must have to palm the baby off onto their mothers to deal with them as they surely couldn't cope on their own otherwise.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Wait until those who decry the nanny state hear that!

BTW, how do you propose to stop people having sex?



How many people is too many? And given that net immigration tends to go up when the economy grows, and falls when the economy recesses (simple supply and demand), why is it such a hot-button subject?
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Gareth, there is nothing Nanny state about that. It's called managing a problem. The labour government has not made a tough decision in ten years, they've just been cleaning up the mess they made by nannying people. How about being pro-active and tackling the problem, draconian maybe, effective? My guess is it would have an effect. Most public policy these days does very little except appease people.

I don't. Not sure if you've noticed but we have condoms and birth control pills.

There is always unemployment, stop paying the wasters their dole money during the good times and they will sharp get to work. The only flaw in my argument is that there is a part of society which is too lazy to do anything these days apart from moan and the lack of decent labourers will force businesses to move abroad (They will then be vilified for this).
 
Shadow Leader said:
From what I can see Aragorn is saying limit the amount of kids per family who will be eligible for child benefits, not turning the place into little China and having a one child rule!! Possibly not such a bad idea actually.

I too see all these teenage mums and wonder what on earth is going on in their heads. Watching one of my closest friends finding it hard at the moment with her six month old baby (she's 32 and her husband is very supportive as well) I can only imagine that these teenage mums must have to palm the baby off onto their mothers to deal with them as they surely couldn't cope on their own otherwise.
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Exactly... I'm not suggesting we have a model like china but for some people it is almost an incentive to have more kids.
 
krizon said:
So there are policies in place to enforce labour legislation, just the possibly selective lack of will to employ them.
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I'm not sure what you mean, but what I meant is that labour legislation in the UK, and its enforcement, is a matter for Westminster. Not Brussels.
 
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