simmo
Senior Jockey
@ Archie - :lol: that's me told then.
I'd like the referendum to be in October with an embargo on campaigning until after the various May elections. None of which are hot-air.
Brexit
- Thread starter icebreaker
- Start date
@ Archie - :lol: that's me told then.
I'd like the referendum to be in October with an embargo on campaigning until after the various May elections. None of which are hot-air.
Nobody wants this referendum except the Tories and UKIP -let those fuckers pay for it .
Nicola and Alex are rubbing their hands with glee - it is win win for them - they want to remain in the EU so a remain vote is good for Scotland - a leave vote against the will of the Scottish electorate must mean a second independence referendum that they are much more likely to win especially with Corbyn having as much chance of winning a general election as Silviniaco Conti has of winning the Gold Cup .
Nicola and Alex are rubbing their hands with glee - it is win win for them - they want to remain in the EU so a remain vote is good for Scotland - a leave vote against the will of the Scottish electorate must mean a second independence referendum that they are much more likely to win especially with Corbyn having as much chance of winning a general election as Silviniaco Conti has of winning the Gold Cup .
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simmo
Senior Jockey
Que? The SNP wants to remain part of the UK but will be happy if something happens which results in that not happening?
gigilo
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No brainer. Anything that's supported by Duncan-Smith, Farage
The only people who will vote out are the middle aged grumpy old feckers,anyone under 50 will look at that motley crew above and will find it laughable...hopefully
icebreaker
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I think it's unfairly selective to list down the various lunatic fringe elements lining up for the "Leave" category in order to justify a Stay vote. There are many sane and reasonably intelligent people also on the side of the Leave faction ..... Boris Johnson?
As always, there are snake oil salesmen on both sides of the debate; Jeremy Corbyn who is often portrayed as a laughing-stock on this forum is a staunch advocate of the Stay camp. Should his participation sway anybody away from this position of Stay?
If we allow ourselves to be persuaded by the participation of whatever campaigner on the Leave side to vote in the opposite direction it doesn't say very much for own individual independence of thought.
As always, there are snake oil salesmen on both sides of the debate; Jeremy Corbyn who is often portrayed as a laughing-stock on this forum is a staunch advocate of the Stay camp. Should his participation sway anybody away from this position of Stay?
If we allow ourselves to be persuaded by the participation of whatever campaigner on the Leave side to vote in the opposite direction it doesn't say very much for own individual independence of thought.
archie
Senior Jockey
Boris Johnson is on the side of the Boris faction. If he's your best shot at sane and reasonably intelligent it's back to the drawing board I'm afraid.
Corbyn is far from staunch. he's traditionally been against the eu on the basis that it is some sort of capitalist club. The hard left are never pro eu and of course him and his sinister team (described by a shadow minister as those who would believe the wrong side won the Cold War ) would rather reach out to Putin or venezuela
it has been very striking how irrelevant labout have been. There is zero leadership or commitment
can you imagine the same under Blair brown or mandelson? They would have been striking hard at the obvious difficulties for the Tories and selling a strong stay case
hes worse than a laughing stock. He's incompetent and thick
it has been very striking how irrelevant labout have been. There is zero leadership or commitment
can you imagine the same under Blair brown or mandelson? They would have been striking hard at the obvious difficulties for the Tories and selling a strong stay case
hes worse than a laughing stock. He's incompetent and thick
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icebreaker
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Whatever about the intelligence quotient of Boris Johnson ( I happen to think that he is reasonably intelligent FWIW), your position seems to be an advocacy to vote Stay based on some random eccentrics lined up on the Leave side which to me appears to be an incredibly weak argument.
"Anything that's supported by Duncan-Smith, Farage, Redwood, Galloway and Hoey is basically indefensible".
archie
Senior Jockey
Try reading the bit about the EU being more generous to Wales than Westminster.
Also, that collection of eccentrics are leading the Leave campaign so it's not unreasonable to use that as a negative to their arguments particularly with the lies and half truths that UKIP produced in the general election.
Also, that collection of eccentrics are leading the Leave campaign so it's not unreasonable to use that as a negative to their arguments particularly with the lies and half truths that UKIP produced in the general election.
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Colin Phillips
At the Start
To be honest I haven't a clue whether we would be better in or out - and I feel I am a long way from being alone in that situation.
Feel it will be a situation where fear of the unknown will ensure a "stay in" vote.
Feel it will be a situation where fear of the unknown will ensure a "stay in" vote.
Best article I've seen in this is by ed Conway in the times today. He's generally against leaving but it's with a shrug of the shoulders. The reason. Because he rightly believes that in or out actually won't make a lot of difference. I think there's a lot of truth in that. go through each issue line by line and ask exactly what the Europe does that no state can do for itself The Euro perhaps???
the biggest issue is supposedly trade and tariffs. Well this is, to paraphrase Gove, analogue thinking in a digital age. The eu signed a free trade agreement with Columbia this week.
He he doesn't articulate the obvious point which is that the eu is increasingly irrelevant. It doesn't matter . As we go forward this will increasingly be the case. The key now is to dismantle the excesses from within. ultimately it's role should be something along the lines of the commonwealth and rather than two parliaments and god knows how many fat slobs doing nothing all day, it should move to a three desk regus office in Milton keynes
the biggest issue is supposedly trade and tariffs. Well this is, to paraphrase Gove, analogue thinking in a digital age. The eu signed a free trade agreement with Columbia this week.
He he doesn't articulate the obvious point which is that the eu is increasingly irrelevant. It doesn't matter . As we go forward this will increasingly be the case. The key now is to dismantle the excesses from within. ultimately it's role should be something along the lines of the commonwealth and rather than two parliaments and god knows how many fat slobs doing nothing all day, it should move to a three desk regus office in Milton keynes
One thing I have noticed is this... Has anyone anywhere given one good reason why we should look forward to a future in the eu? Is there anything at all current that we couldn't manage perfectly well ourselves and probably a lot better?
those questions have to be answered. But there is no answer
those questions have to be answered. But there is no answer
Yes. i agree but the leave camp has also to present its case in stronger terms. They should be emphasising that the future plans of many within the Eu is towards greater "integration" and thus less control over own affairs. And the cost. Everyone should be made aware of the bloated machine supposedly running this mess
never trust an organisation that cannot keep its own costs under control to do anything professionally
and what of the politcial parties.?
Arent nt the snp small minded small country small time tossers? Moan moan moan about not having control over own affairs but want to throw their lot in with the organisation dedicated to stripping them of their powers. Petty minded morons
and labour. nothing. Nothing at all. More concerned with giving opening the borders at Calais. and recruiting Nazi echoing 9/11 supporters. What a total mess they are
never trust an organisation that cannot keep its own costs under control to do anything professionally
and what of the politcial parties.?
Arent nt the snp small minded small country small time tossers? Moan moan moan about not having control over own affairs but want to throw their lot in with the organisation dedicated to stripping them of their powers. Petty minded morons
and labour. nothing. Nothing at all. More concerned with giving opening the borders at Calais. and recruiting Nazi echoing 9/11 supporters. What a total mess they are
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EC1
On a break
If we were ever going to vote to come out..it would have been last time we had a chance. The reason is that we had only been in it a few years then...and people had a clear memory of not being in it. That was the time when..if it was worse being in it..people would have voted us out then. The fact we voted then to stay in tells me that now..with lots of people having little idea of what its like outside..there is no chance people will vote for th unknown..its human nature to keep the status quo..
on top of that..all i have heard is scare tactics. Cameron won last election on fear of Milliband+SNP...he will keep us in using same tactics,
no chance of an out vote imo
on top of that..all i have heard is scare tactics. Cameron won last election on fear of Milliband+SNP...he will keep us in using same tactics,
no chance of an out vote imo
I'd agree that the fav is 'stay in' and reckon there'll be a slow drift further that way to around 57% / 43% as polling day approaches
I don't think anyone knows if we'll be better in or out; it's all just opinion, be that from self-appointed experts or Joe and Joanna Bloggs. So better keep what you know rather than try the unknown. I haven't made up my mind yet but being a thrusting, venturing, devil-may-care sorta guy will probably opt for the unknown
Economically, the Capitalist world seems to be in a strange situation. That base Interest Rates are to all intents and purposes at zero and have been for a long time suggests to a simpleton like me that summat's up; though what that is I've no idea and I don't think anyone else does either
Three more feckin months of this interminable Referendum campaign. Why couldn't it have been three weeks or so, like general elections?
I don't think anyone knows if we'll be better in or out; it's all just opinion, be that from self-appointed experts or Joe and Joanna Bloggs. So better keep what you know rather than try the unknown. I haven't made up my mind yet but being a thrusting, venturing, devil-may-care sorta guy will probably opt for the unknown
Economically, the Capitalist world seems to be in a strange situation. That base Interest Rates are to all intents and purposes at zero and have been for a long time suggests to a simpleton like me that summat's up; though what that is I've no idea and I don't think anyone else does either
Three more feckin months of this interminable Referendum campaign. Why couldn't it have been three weeks or so, like general elections?
Drone. Do you mean better in or out politically or economically or both?
there is surely no doubt that politcially out is better. For all the rather stupid remarks about Westminster here at least the leaders have a responsibility to the voters and can simply be chucked out. Look back over past thirty years and how many "lost leaders" have we seen. Ian Duncan smith? Milliband? I think the voters get it right (despite the forums general feeble minded admiration for dictators)
econimically? More difficult but I think all the evidence is that in the medium to long term most definitely so. Simply put we would not be a a net contributor and our busineses would be freed up from useless over regulation. Trade is not an issue
in short term there would be some uncertainty but I take the view this is very overplayed. Out on Friday and very little will look differently on monday
i would stay in if the project was rolled back and to some extent the dreadful ambition towards an unelected overstuffed lazy sleepy bone headed smug superstate is getting a kicking ....but down the line?
And isn't it time the eu reformed itself a bit? Showed some drive? For fcks sake get rid of two parliament buildings for a start and let's see a big cut in the staff and the outrageous benefits. How can you take seriously such a self serving flabby mess? Couldn't even get round to reading the Greeks bloody balance sheets before wrecking the failed currency
and do we really want to be in the same "nation" as a load of bone idle bubbles and cheese eating surrender monkeys?
there is surely no doubt that politcially out is better. For all the rather stupid remarks about Westminster here at least the leaders have a responsibility to the voters and can simply be chucked out. Look back over past thirty years and how many "lost leaders" have we seen. Ian Duncan smith? Milliband? I think the voters get it right (despite the forums general feeble minded admiration for dictators)
econimically? More difficult but I think all the evidence is that in the medium to long term most definitely so. Simply put we would not be a a net contributor and our busineses would be freed up from useless over regulation. Trade is not an issue
in short term there would be some uncertainty but I take the view this is very overplayed. Out on Friday and very little will look differently on monday
i would stay in if the project was rolled back and to some extent the dreadful ambition towards an unelected overstuffed lazy sleepy bone headed smug superstate is getting a kicking ....but down the line?
And isn't it time the eu reformed itself a bit? Showed some drive? For fcks sake get rid of two parliament buildings for a start and let's see a big cut in the staff and the outrageous benefits. How can you take seriously such a self serving flabby mess? Couldn't even get round to reading the Greeks bloody balance sheets before wrecking the failed currency
and do we really want to be in the same "nation" as a load of bone idle bubbles and cheese eating surrender monkeys?
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S
SlimChance
Guest
Someone wants €46k @ 7/4 on Betfair on Brexit after the attacks this morning.
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I suspect the majority of the higher classes, or more succinctly, the people who don't have to worry about money, will take a punt on a vote to leave.
The middle class-to-higher working class (lecturers, Guardian Journalists, Junior Doctors, legal professional,), will vote to stay.
The lower working class or those on employment and support allowance will vote to leave. Unless of course they're from Europe!
The people on the dole will definitely vote to leave, hoping less migration might mean another tenner from the DWP.
The middle class-to-higher working class (lecturers, Guardian Journalists, Junior Doctors, legal professional,), will vote to stay.
The lower working class or those on employment and support allowance will vote to leave. Unless of course they're from Europe!
The people on the dole will definitely vote to leave, hoping less migration might mean another tenner from the DWP.
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archie
Senior Jockey
What kind of sad sicko uses this event for political advantage? Well, Farage (obviously) but also several other 'leave' sympathisers. Allison Pearson of the Telegraph is particularly pathetic. Funny, I thought the vote was about the EU rather than NATO which is what the target of these outrages is. As Jefferson Airplane offered so succinctly, 'up against the wall..motherf*ckers'.
Tout Seul
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With youthful idealism I voted to join the 'Common Market' hoping that it was a first step towards a United States of Europe. Too many members of my family had died in unnecessary wars. I certainly didn't envisage the pointless expansion to include disparate nations that bring nothing to the group. I am hugely frustrated by the administration and lack of control over it. It is very far from the ideal I had hoped.
Trade with the original constituent members is strong and mutually beneficial. Like the UK these are post Empire countries and each alone is far weaker than they were in past times. The UK has some major advantages, a language is that taught throughout the world, most importantly by the world's strongest country economically ( and widely in other major economies, such as China, Japan and India).
The UK is seen as a stable base by non EU countries to use as an entry point into Europe - sometimes referred to as an aircraft carrier, it is a pleasant place to work and live and has a business friendly regulatory regime (relative). That is the major reason why there are so many foreign companies based here, financial as well as industrial.
Without the former advantage of commodities from Empire countries, often produced by UK owned companies sending dividends back. the UK is not a particularly strong trading nation. Nowadays many of the main manufacturing companies in the UK are foreign owned. Powerhouse Britain can't build its own power stations, on its own cannot produce airliners, much of its rail capacity is serviced by foreign manufacturers, major British car manufacturers-who they, steel companies- oops, we can assemble electronic equipment but that can be done cheaper and unfortunately, better elsewhere. Where do we excel, weapons-no, highly skilled and motivated workforce- no longer. Financial expertise, we're good at that. Hasn't everyone noticed that most financial decisions are now driven by computers using analytics based on 'Big Data'. Those computers can be based anywhere. The financial sector is being de-skilled and rapidly.
I am English, I am British and proud to be both. I would like my children and their children to live in a safe and economically strong country. Clearly there need to be effective and fair immigration control. We cannot afford to support those indigenous people, only qualified to do the work that migrants are doing but not prepared to accept their wages. We cannot afford to support all the world's poor. When you are struggling to support your own you can't fill up everyone's collecting tin, no matter how worthy the cause.
To say that" trade will not be an issue" is to advocate taking an enormous risk driven by an overinflated view of our current strength based on historic facts. Politically we should be seeking to provide strong leadership to Europe, towards the common good rather than self interest. That way hopefully we can build the strong alliances that will be needed both politically and economically.
Now realism not idealism.
Trade with the original constituent members is strong and mutually beneficial. Like the UK these are post Empire countries and each alone is far weaker than they were in past times. The UK has some major advantages, a language is that taught throughout the world, most importantly by the world's strongest country economically ( and widely in other major economies, such as China, Japan and India).
The UK is seen as a stable base by non EU countries to use as an entry point into Europe - sometimes referred to as an aircraft carrier, it is a pleasant place to work and live and has a business friendly regulatory regime (relative). That is the major reason why there are so many foreign companies based here, financial as well as industrial.
Without the former advantage of commodities from Empire countries, often produced by UK owned companies sending dividends back. the UK is not a particularly strong trading nation. Nowadays many of the main manufacturing companies in the UK are foreign owned. Powerhouse Britain can't build its own power stations, on its own cannot produce airliners, much of its rail capacity is serviced by foreign manufacturers, major British car manufacturers-who they, steel companies- oops, we can assemble electronic equipment but that can be done cheaper and unfortunately, better elsewhere. Where do we excel, weapons-no, highly skilled and motivated workforce- no longer. Financial expertise, we're good at that. Hasn't everyone noticed that most financial decisions are now driven by computers using analytics based on 'Big Data'. Those computers can be based anywhere. The financial sector is being de-skilled and rapidly.
I am English, I am British and proud to be both. I would like my children and their children to live in a safe and economically strong country. Clearly there need to be effective and fair immigration control. We cannot afford to support those indigenous people, only qualified to do the work that migrants are doing but not prepared to accept their wages. We cannot afford to support all the world's poor. When you are struggling to support your own you can't fill up everyone's collecting tin, no matter how worthy the cause.
To say that" trade will not be an issue" is to advocate taking an enormous risk driven by an overinflated view of our current strength based on historic facts. Politically we should be seeking to provide strong leadership to Europe, towards the common good rather than self interest. That way hopefully we can build the strong alliances that will be needed both politically and economically.
Now realism not idealism.
Wrong
trade is not an issue because of the trade balance with the eu not because of the manufacturing fetish. It's pretty obvious that if they want to throw down tariffs (which will not be straightforward because of worldwide agreements ) then you will get the uk doing the very same. The idea that we are so dependent on their market but they simply can shrug ours off doesn't stand up to a seconds scrutiny
So the idea that trade suddenly diminishes because we leave the eu is ridiculous. It won't. Why should it?
the same nonsense was put about by those who cluelessly wanted to join the euro . Absolutely nothing changed. Toyota for instance actually increased their investment despite the doom laden predictions
its absurd to say that financial services and most especially lending are being "de skilled" . Lending is about the future and that is about the people involved . For instance in my sphere A couple of online date driven lenders are quickly unravelling simply because they have taken the human element out. Big mistake
and nd why is employment in the city and financial services at such a high? Do you really think banks of all sectors retain unnecessary "de skilled " staff for the hell of it? No way
the banks for all their faults, are not the eu
Does it really have to be pointed out that you can have a good balance sheet with a business just handed over to family div or a nothing balance sheet and it's bloody Apple in the making
no serious lending decisions are made without contact and that will always remain the same . If anything it's more demanded these days than previously because busineses develop and change so much more rapidly
im only marginally in favour of staying because I believe it the eu will certainly diminish and become increasingly irrelevant as a body but also because the whole effort of upheaval probably outweighs the benefits of leaving .
trade is not an issue because of the trade balance with the eu not because of the manufacturing fetish. It's pretty obvious that if they want to throw down tariffs (which will not be straightforward because of worldwide agreements ) then you will get the uk doing the very same. The idea that we are so dependent on their market but they simply can shrug ours off doesn't stand up to a seconds scrutiny
So the idea that trade suddenly diminishes because we leave the eu is ridiculous. It won't. Why should it?
the same nonsense was put about by those who cluelessly wanted to join the euro . Absolutely nothing changed. Toyota for instance actually increased their investment despite the doom laden predictions
its absurd to say that financial services and most especially lending are being "de skilled" . Lending is about the future and that is about the people involved . For instance in my sphere A couple of online date driven lenders are quickly unravelling simply because they have taken the human element out. Big mistake
and nd why is employment in the city and financial services at such a high? Do you really think banks of all sectors retain unnecessary "de skilled " staff for the hell of it? No way
the banks for all their faults, are not the eu
Does it really have to be pointed out that you can have a good balance sheet with a business just handed over to family div or a nothing balance sheet and it's bloody Apple in the making
no serious lending decisions are made without contact and that will always remain the same . If anything it's more demanded these days than previously because busineses develop and change so much more rapidly
im only marginally in favour of staying because I believe it the eu will certainly diminish and become increasingly irrelevant as a body but also because the whole effort of upheaval probably outweighs the benefits of leaving .
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the statement that the economies are "weaker" than when there were "empires" is a complete nonsense. Just because other economies have caught up doesn't make the eu economies weaker. You may as well state that because a neighbour has bought a new car you are suddenly poorer. It's A meaningless statement
so many mistakes
weapons no? You are kidding.
cars? Been in a massive upward swing for years
electronics? High end is strong but far more important is IT and biotech where we are strong again
steel? So what? Same everywhere. It's worldwide
rubbishinb the workforce? So why have the demanding Japanese invested here, why is google opening a huge head office in London?
airliners?
The aerospace industry of the United Kingdom is the second- or third-largest national aerospace industry in the world, depending upon the method of measurement.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] The industry employs around 113,000 people directly and around 276,000 indirectly and has an annual turnover of around £25 billion.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][3]
[/SUP]
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icebreaker
At the Start
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But the Stay camp have been kicking this particular political football around too, no? And for longer. Cameron has been regular pronouncing "We Are Safer In Europe".
Surely the Brexit advocates are permitted to question the whole European security issue in the light of Brussels? The issue of ease of movement for terrorists within the E.U., the porous borders, the flaky intelligence-sharing of the various police forces. Is it only saddo's who would query the consequences for Britain regarding the security flaws at the heart of Europe?
edit: (I've just seen on Sky News right this minute that Richard Dearlove -- former chief of MI6 -- say that Britain would be safer if it exited the E.U. Hardly a Farage fellow-traveller or bandwagon-jumper).
I think the security should be questioned in or out. In fact it makes no difference and I don't believe at all that being in makes it any safer in terms of intelligence
do security services have to be members of the eu to share information? I don't think so. In fact it's total bollocks. Everyone is working towards the same objective and it's hardly a fcking competition.
To enjoyably provoke some of the tossers reading this, we have gchq which is the world leader in monitoring I understand.
Jsut it as in trade, we need each other and possibly they need us a bit more. We don't need 40000 grunts and two parliaments doing nothing to make that work
however the issue of borders is correct. No argument about that
those advocating staying in have to answer that point or stfu
do security services have to be members of the eu to share information? I don't think so. In fact it's total bollocks. Everyone is working towards the same objective and it's hardly a fcking competition.
To enjoyably provoke some of the tossers reading this, we have gchq which is the world leader in monitoring I understand.
Jsut it as in trade, we need each other and possibly they need us a bit more. We don't need 40000 grunts and two parliaments doing nothing to make that work
however the issue of borders is correct. No argument about that
those advocating staying in have to answer that point or stfu
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