Britain ruled by banks? (Discuss)

its a rhetorical question so you dont need to see any news story at all
 
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Grey said:
Cameron could have been in there pitching with the rest of them.
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"Pitching in" for what exactly, Arthur?

The broad terms of this deal are fixed and not up for negotiation. There will be no fundamental changes to the T&Cs, and any further discourse will amount to nothing more than tinkering with the edges.

Given the inflexible terms presented, all Cameron has done is say "Thanks, but no thanks", for which he (and the UK generally) have been roundly trashed by Europhiles, who have not hesitated to vent their own prejudices in the aftermath of that decision.

The antics of some European politicians has been laughable over the last few days, because their measure of whether you are a good/bad European appears to be based solely on whether you agree/disgree with them on this matter. This measure is somewhat narrow, and in my opinion, anyone with a similar mindset is probably motivated and/or influenced by factors beyond the immediate treaty question - them possibly having longer-term historical grudges which they would prefer not to air directly, lest it make them look a little prejudiced.

:cool:
 
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Don't get me wrong, I was actually pleased when I heard about the veto, because I think that it will be easier for the remaining 26 to sort something out on their own. It's only from a British perspective that it was not a good move.

The real negotiation about the content of the deal is only starting now. You might be right that the end result would be the same whether Cameron stayed at the table or not but I doubt it. Had he stayed in he would almost certainly extracted some concessions, even if refused to sign up to it in he end.

The name calling that has been going on is not edifying, whether it's coming from politicians who should know better or sections of the press who have lost all sense of decency, if they ever had one.
 
<P>Still no answer to your questions Grass, but no need really was there? Last para is spot on, although it doesnt always require history for prejudice does it

<P>The Finns will be my bet to bring this to a halt. Thats where the rumblings have started.Strangely they feel that paying taxes to subsidise those that do not pay taxes is not that appealing. </P>

<P>I think across much of the north european electorate there is real resentment of the PIGS and (sadly for some here) the Uk may well be seen as having called it right. </P>

<P>The EU is seen as a bloated clueless dithering miss mash of pen pushing grunts who wouldnt spot a nuclear explosion if it happened on their doorstep. They have reacted to the crisis with the imagination of an brain damaged auditor and the composure of corporal Jones</P>

<P>If an board nof a company let a handful of subisdiaries sling in false accounting whilst merrily charging towards insolvency their feet wouldnt touch the ground. The shareholders would string them up and their rivals would consider them to be gold plated muppets</P>

<P>Its not just in the UK that there is going to be a massive shift against the idea of euroepan intergarion</P>

<P>One last point, think a disservice to Brown Grass. He was firmly against the euro and certainly no europhile. For better or worse, he would know his own mind and could be bull headed and i suspect he might have been a lot closer to Camerons line</P>
 
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Er, haven't we just arrived back at the point - via Grassy's conjecture that long-term grudges may be informing some of the stances being taken - where Clivex's assertions were met with Grey's rebuttal that 'you are talking about history as if it were still current'?

Doesn't history inform our present? It doesn't have to involve wars, slave-trading or other excesses - sometimes the locking of antlers is over far less brutal issues like corruption (perceived or eventually proved real), but history is history, whatever shape it takes. It'd be naive to assume that a bundle of countries which have centuries of shared history, much of it violently and mutually dissident, will put this aside when one or the other shows dissent again.
 
If history is important, I find it somewhat ironic that the UK is now viewed with disdain by the very countries that it helped liberate from German oppression 70 years ago.

Go figure.

Edit: I acknowledge that the UK/Ireland dynamic is a little different.
 
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Yes, but my "historic" point was that whilst some bang on as if the british are all about self interest, this was and almost certainly still is clearly far from true given the history of the EU

Lots of fairly straightforward questions were unanswered but the silence spoke volumes
 
A quote from one French lady in the press at the weekend showed that some memories are still very long and extremely admiring of Albions mindset

They will all come squealing again when the last piece of the union jigsaw will be the renaming of the EU as ... Germany :)
 
Total non sequitur: Grassy, love that signature line! :lol: (Although given your remarks, I can understand it!)
 
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Grasshopper said:
If history is important, I find it somewhat ironic that the UK is now viewed with disdain by the very countries that it helped liberate from German oppression 70 years ago.

Go figure.

Edit: I acknowledge that the UK/Ireland dynamic is a little different.
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Grassy, it's probably shouldn't be too surprising if after years of lies, disdain and insults about Europe from the British press some people are tempted to snap back at this time. It will all cool down again. By the way, which Irish voices have you heard directing disdain towards the UK on this issue? The Irish media are actually quite worried about the possible implications of the UK ending up isolated.

Kriz, history is of course important, but clivex was complaining about faults in the CAP that have long since been dealt with as if they were still current.

clivex, why would anyone bother answering a completely open, vague and hypothetical question? And try not to get too excited, your boot boy tendencies are starting to get the better of you.
 
Grey said:
Grassy, it's probably shouldn't be too surprising if after years of lies, disdain and insults about Europe from the British press some people are tempted to snap back at this time. It will all cool down again. By the way, which Irish voices have you heard directing disdain towards the UK on this issue? The Irish media are actually quite worried about the possible implications of the UK ending up isolated.
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I guess my position is that a nation shouldn't really be judged on what elements of its press might say in editorials. When elected representatives of other European countries start throwing around insults about the UK, it is more sinister (for want of a better word).

I'm sure it will all cool down, hence my previous references to "posturing".

I don't believe I made any direct reference to "Irish" voices. My mentioning the "UK/Ireland dynamic" was to make a distinction between those countries liberated by the UK during WWII, and the historical unpleasantness that has prevailed for centuries between the UK and Ireland......which I personally believe is a thing of the past for most people in these islands.

:cool:
 
If history is important, I find it somewhat ironic that the UK is now viewed with disdain by the very countries that it helped liberate from German oppression 70 years ago.
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They have been looking at us with disdain since Wellington kicked their arses at Waterloo, so nothing's changed there!
 
walsworth said:
They have been looking at us with disdain since Wellington kicked their arses at Waterloo, so nothing's changed there!
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True Walsworth, and this whole episode has just provided these people with fuel.

When elected representatives of other European countries start throwing around insults about the UK, it is more sinister (for want of a better word).
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These people have always thrown around insults about the UK, Ireland who ever. This is nothing new, yet it is reported now as if these bigots are leading lights and the press are reporting every word as if popular opinion. All the old prejudice coming back to the surface...even on here.
 
livex, why would anyone bother answering a completely open, vague and hypothetical question? .
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Because it was asked of you. Twice. And the silence was deafening and defining
 
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riz, history is of course important, but clivex was complaining about faults in the CAP that have long since been dealt with as if they were still current.
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Thats what i dislike about forums. Slyly misinterpreting my words (surely not so thick as not to understand?) so that have to be dragged back here and blah blah.

Kriz. I am sure you understood the point even if others find it beyond them.

But talking about slow minded prejudices, the idea that anyone who thinks that the eu as it stands and the eurozone is not working is a "boot boy" or "nationalist". What complete crap.
 
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So, we seem to be in some accord that the EU's financial woes have seen its politicians unable to let go of old distrusts and grievances - whether these are based on their close involvement, for or against each other, in wars, rebellions, and collusions with the enemy. In other words, no matter how disant or recent, history is indeed still informing this construct and its negative resurgence of memory may contribute to a terminal fragmentation.

Could it be that the historical fractures will eventually cause a final sundering of the 'community', showing it to have been a false construct all along?
 
Czech republic and Hungary have today said they wont sign up to tax harmonisation. You can bet that Ireland have privately said the same too.
 
It is better for everyone that it is resolved. That cant be forgotten. We are where we are and collapse of the euro is bad news all round for reasons that have been gone over before
 
Okay, then just to widen the discussion a bit more, if the Euro collapses, for whatever reason, won't that mean that all Euro users will go back to their own currencies? How will that - this isn't an argument, because I don't have a clue - be a bad thing? What damage would that cause that hasn't already been done in spades, globally? Can someone spell it out in very easy-to-understand phrases? Because not everyone is agin the collapse, so there has to be a viewpoint on it that doesn't feel it's bad news.
 
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Because many businesses within the eurozone have their borrowing in euros but will then have revenues in a devalued currency. This will lead to numerous collapses which will in turn bring seriously affect banks. Thats just at the commercial level.

At nation debt level, i dont where it goes but withoiut doubt countries will default on their borrowing which again could trigger real threats to the banking sector. France is very exposed with Greece and we are a bit with ireland.

Like it or not, banks in trouble is bad news all round
 
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Thank you, Sir Clive! It's probably near eough to what I thought, but as things things seem to fly off into the higher arcana of economics, I couldn't be too sure. I'm off to a Crimbo party now, so will be in no fit state to continue, so thanks for that while I'm relatively compos mentis.
 
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