Buying A Successful Broodmare

T

tdk

At the Start
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Saffron Walden, Essex
Does anyone have any suggestions regarding the best "line of attack" for purchasing a broodmare for a relatively cheap price?

It is obviously a very complicated "science" trying to predict which mares may produce successful offspring, but I am interested in "angles", whereby one might be able to get mare from a decent family, which for one reason or another might go relatively cheaply at a sale.

I'm thinking perhaps a well bred castoff from Godolphin/a big yard, a mare from a "failed" sire which perhaps comes from an otherwise good family, a foreign mare.....

Any ideas out there?
 
If you are interested in a filly from somewhere like Darley then at the December Tattersalls mares sales anything 3& up with a decent pedigree will make plenty of money. However if you are willing to buy a 2yo there (usaully unraced) they are better value. You must though check out their medical history - both Darley & Juddmonte happily show you this and will be upfront as to any problems they may have had.

I have a good friend who works for Darley and generally knows what is worth buying - we go through the catalogue with me reading out names and him replying "cow, cow, cripple, cow!"
 
Look for the Darley well bred fillies that have failed ot win a race when they go to the sales, may get one for under 10K , bung in foal and try to win with it, before cashing in at a big price

2 to look out for, for you

Me - Peter Chappel-Hyams sprinter, very well bred and has small ability, wouldn't fetch much unless it won.

So Sweet - Mick Channons , very well bred, looked moderate ond ebut, has limited ability and has good blood line, sales likely in winter, shes not very big but if she won a race, her breeding would make her worth a mint
 
Interesting stuff, cheers

Chris - I'm presuming that the owners of Me wouldn't let her go for love nor money until she has won a race! V interesting though...
 
I'd suggest Songsheet is one to ask tdk - she knows the breeding game inside out. Steve Miller is another.
 
I can enquire if you would like Tdk. I have a contact at Bloomsbury and I am currently doing a piece on their Yearlings for research and on a new stallion they have been using, could ask their admin side, what the plans were if you are interested.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Aug 1 2006, 10:03 AM
I'd suggest Songsheet is one to ask tdk - she knows the breeding game inside out. Steve Miller is another.
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If I only knew.....

And don't ask Miller - they've just shipped LUJAIN to Greece :lol: :lol:
 
Isn't Storm Cat's brother standing out there somewhere Songsheet (maybe Cyprus?). They certainly know their breeding stock (even if they are well bred duds).
 
Are you prepared to give us some ball-park figures?
And what sort of horse do you want to breed - speedy 2 yr olds, stayers, jumpers - or just a Derby winner? LOL

I'd think of buying at the Nmkt October 'horses in training' sales something well-bred and young from one of those stables that push their 2 yr olds too soon and too hard. You might get something that would have been quite good, in other more patient hands
 
Tdk, may I suggest you take a look at the Racing Post online? Go to the BLOODSTOCK section at the top, click on SALES, then scroll down to TATTERSALLS and select 11-14 July 2006.

You will now see a range of fillies and mares who can be yours from as little as a couple of thousand to a Darley offering at £44,000. You can see the mares' breeding, their ages, and who's offering them for what. Those are typical options open to you.

The few golden rules I've picked up from Songsheet are to pick a mare that has WON and preferably one that has a bit of black type. You can pick up a beautifully-bred no-hoper, and you have to ask yourself why the animal was no good? Was she inherently unsound? Nuts? Stupid? It won't be the worst black mark in the world against her if she has never raced, but there needs to be a good reason as to why not. It could be that as a youngster, she whisked about in her paddock and damaged herself, which is fair enough. If it's because she refused to race three times, it isn't quite the same story.

You can also buy mares ready-made in foal. Songsheet and I bought REACH THE WIND in foal to AGNES WORLD, for example, as 'Doris' as RTW is known at home, was knocking on and her stud wanted room for younger mares. She had one further foal and we've now retired her, being 'out of' her money-wise through the sale of the first foal. The current yearling is probably being offered later this year (by CARNIVAL DANCER - waaaay cheaper than Aggie!). So, you can, as an alternative to the long haul, pick up a shorter-term breeding prospect with an excellent sire for much less than a younger mare with many years of breeding ahead of her, as an example for you.

I know nothing about breeding - the expert is Songsheet. If you're not an expert and au fait off the top of your head with who's a bleeder, who gets as many cripples as sound foals, etc., then may I very strongly suggest you attach yourself to someone who knows what they're doing! You could select and buy yourself a nice enough mare (and I assume you've got somewhere suitable to keep her), but find that the 'lovely' stallion you've selected on the grounds that he's won a lot (I offer TOMBA as an example) just doesn't get that many winners, and few people but his owner uses him! :D The topic on failing new stallions demonstrates that a fabulous track record doesn't always translate to a fabulous line of winners. I wouldn't breed to a sire who'd been retired because of unsoundness, either. There are enough things that can go disastrously awry with your foal without helping it on its way with wonky legs!
 
Some excellent stuff there, Krizon - thanks.

I have been doing a little bit of reading up on this subject and the one thing I am absolutely 100% clear on is that we will need the assistance of someone who really knows what they are doing! It seems there are any number of mistakes that can be made and hopefully, with a bit of care, avoided.

We haven't really set a specific budget yet or decided what type of horse we would be looking to breed, but I think it will make more sense to spend a bit more getting a decent mare to start with rather than going for something dirt cheap and hoping to get lucky.

My instinct is that we would like to go for something fast, but then I have this nagging feeling that that is what everyone wants to do. Maybe there is an angle in going over to Germany and finding a stamina laden German mare? Wouldn't be easy to organise or get right, but then if it was, everyone would be doing it....
 
Originally posted by krizon@Aug 2 2006, 12:57 AM
The few golden rules I've picked up from Songsheet are to pick a mare that has WON and preferably one that has a bit of black type. You can pick up a beautifully-bred no-hoper, and you have to ask yourself why the animal was no good? Was she inherently unsound? Nuts? Stupid?
[SNIP of very sound stuff]
... I wouldn't breed to a sire who'd been retired because of unsoundness, either. There are enough things that can go disastrously awry with your foal without helping it on its way with wonky legs!
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Yes, could not agree more; and the point I was making in my post above is, that some fillies from certain stables [can't mention here for obvious reasons] might do well for their first few runs then tail off badly - having been pushed too hard. These tend to come to the end-of-season sales out of form and make modest sums, but might make good breeding prospects - you might even rest them then race them again the following season, as a win would boost the foal price. You'd need to do some research.

2nd point: Quite so Krizon, the fashion for breeding to high-profie stallions who were retired early unsound is imho in danger of ruining the thoroughbred... Coolmore seem particularly irresponsible in this regard tho some of the Godolphin stallions come into the same category. A useful excercise is to get some copies of eg Owner and Breeder, and go thru the stats; Some stallions which don't cover many mares nevertheless have a better strike rate of w/r than some of the expensive high-profile stallions

It's also worth remembering that 'everyone' breeds for speed and precocity these days and the relelvant stallions are correspondingly expensive. If I had a mare with a bit of stamina I'd put her to eg Kayf Tara - cheap but brilliant and sound, and your offspring would give you a long career and possibly a very lucrative one. On the other hand the progency might not fetch much - can't understand why, as top staying races pay very good money and a good'un can win them year in year out! I suppose it depends whether you want to sell the progency or keep it and race it
 
At the end of the day buying cheap mares is a gamble. We bought a mare for 7000 grand a few years ago who had only bred fillies she has since produced three colts and one filly since being with us. Her best progeny we sold for 4000 and he went on to be third in the britannia and was sold to hong kong. We bought her because she was a nice horse who had bred winners by average sires. Onthe other side we bought a mare for 1200 in foal to compton place and sold the foal a year later for 20000.

We aim to buy nice looking mares with the sort of page that could improve. We only use our on stallions who although not the greatest standing were all kept in training at four and are tough consistent sorts.
 
There are some interesting mares in the Doncaster Sales next week TDK. The catologue is online on the dbs website. There are two consignments specifically which could be of interest.
 
Skyliner - do you really mean 7000 grand, or 7 grand (i.e. £7,000)? I'd be seriously disappointed in your return if it were the former! :what:
 
Ok you caught me out it was 7000. Not 7000 grand. She would have made a lot more when we bought her but the lot before was the first mare offered in foal to giants causeway and made mega money and everyone dissappeared so we got a bargain.
 
tdk: I don't know if you have bought something yet, but Elite are selling a nicely bred 2 yo filly for breeding only - Ceilidh Band [by Celtic Swing out of Generous Diana/Generous]. She's been with Julie Camacho in Malton but is unraced as she had a pastern crack and it took a long time to heal up as she wasn't at first a good patient. The Camachos don't think she should be raced so the Club don't want to put her through the sale ring just in case, hence they've asked us to ask around.

I know of another not quite so well bred filly - a 3 year old - who is speedy on the gallops but doesn't enjoy her racing who I think could be for sale too... let me know by pm if you're interested. She'd be quite a bit cheaper. She'd also make a lovely riding horse - she's very sweet natured and an easy ride, c16 hands

Elite also want to sell Travolta as a riding horse. He might make a nice hunter or even an eventer. He's currently at Edgy's but is going in a seller. He's another morning glory - talented, just doesn't do it on the course. He's quite a stocky type, c16h
 
Sorry to hijack your thread TDK, but thought this was an apt place to post that I am off to the mare sales tomorrow. I am hopefully purchasing two mares in the next few weeks/months and I am really excited about this new venture.

I have been invited to lunch with a couple of bloodstock professionals who have been doing a lot of the necessary research as I am a complete novice on this subject-but I am beginning to learn. Hopefully, I may have shortlisted one mare already.

If we have no success tomorrow, I have been told there are a few more mare sales I could visit... and not all in the country! :)

Exciting times ahead......I hope.
 
Some big money spent at Newmarket the last couple of days.
£3 million guineas for Spinning Queen and then £4.6 million today for Magical Romance.
 
Originally posted by Arkwright@Nov 28 2006, 08:48 PM
Some big money spent at Newmarket the last couple of days.
£3 million guineas for Spinning Queen and then £4.6 million today for Magical Romance.
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Yes, those sort of figures absolutely shocked me, and certainly not in my budget... or even anywhere remotely close.


TDK, best of luck tomorrow. Let's hope we do not end up bidding for the same horse! :D
 
Originally posted by Songsheet+Aug 1 2006, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Songsheet @ Aug 1 2006, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Shadow Leader@Aug 1 2006, 10:03 AM
I'd suggest Songsheet is one to ask tdk - she knows the breeding game inside out.  Steve Miller is another.
Click to expand...
If I only knew.....

And don't ask Miller - they've just shipped LUJAIN to Greece :lol: :lol: [/b][/quote]

...which will make him all the more difficult to get hold of. :P And foal number two will be by the all-conquering (but unproven) Lucky Owners (a stallion that knocks your eye out).
 
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