Champion Hurdle 2013

Grandouet is set to go to Punchestown.
interesting to see henderson say if he doesn't get near the fly there then chasing looks the likely option for next season. also talk of the same for rock on ruby.

i guess now is as good a time as any as there is a good looking crop of novice hurdlers coming through for next season.
 
I know EC1 occasionally gets a hard time when it comes to sectionals but between his input and articles like the one linked above we're getting some seriously good insight into how races unfold.

I'm even tempted to conclude that Grandouet might not have won the Champion.
 
Thought you'd taken your ball home?:)
SR makes exactly the same assumption you do - that what happened in a race can be judged purely on the % finishing speed of a horse. However, horses don't race against the clock, but do what is necessary to beat those they're competing against. Hurricane Fly did just that, moving easily past his opposition, then being driven when he idled (Ruby's opinion, not mine) and neither you, nor anybody else, can say how much more he could have produced, had it been necessary to do so.
The notion that he won because of a pace collapse is clearly bollox, he simply outsped 3 slower horses, with those that 'supposedly collapsed' filling the next 3 places..
 
I know EC1 occasionally gets a hard time when it comes to sectionals but between his input and articles like the one linked above we're getting some seriously good insight into how races unfold.

I'm even tempted to conclude that Grandouet might not have won the Champion.


Don't be ridiculous :lol:
 
You are owned, Tanlic, and are no longer permitted to post in this thread without my express written permission. ;)

:D
 
Thought you'd taken your ball home?:)
..
Me?

Don't think so. I certainly don't recall ever having any dispute with you, reet.

Re the CH, think back to how the race appeared to be unfolding - before we had access to the sectional information. Hurricane Fly was in trouble at halfway. Walsh was clearly unhappy with the way the horse was travelling, scrubbing and cajoling him along to try and stay in touch. I remember thinking at least I don't have to worry about that one and the big G is clearly going best of everything else. I stopped short of counting my dosh because I thought he was just stretching ever so slightly at one or two of his hurdles and then he came down at the next.

I think you only have to see how the rest of the race panned out to see that the sectionals explain what looked to happen to the naked eye. I remember wondering if Hurricane Fly was closing becuse the others were wilting. I even remember thinking 'World Hurle next year' because I thought he was just outstaying them.

The sectional information is meaningless unless there is intelligent interpretation of it. Magic Eye pictures are just wallpaper if you don't know how to adjust your vision.

And how telling is the comment that MTOY ran the trip faster than Champagne Fever? I'll never back him again at this track unless the opposition is weak.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of that Champion Stakes winner Dettori rode about ten years ago. Weaved a path all over the course yet the Turftrax transponder found that the horse covered less ground than anything else!
 
No, not you, DO - you just had the misfortune to post while I was composing my riposte to EC, and I was too lazy to make the chronology clear afterwards.
Apologies if I caused you to think otherwise.:cool:
 
No, not you, DO - you just had the misfortune to post while I was composing my riposte to EC, and I was too lazy to make the chronology clear afterwards.
Apologies if I caused you to think otherwise.:cool:

Why do you constantly attempt to belittle one of the people making an original and serious contribution to this forum?
 
Grey
If you're referring to DO, then I haven't a clue what you're talking about.
If you mean EC, he's the one that withdrew from the same discussion in a hissy fit, then decided to regurgitate it through someone else's back door.
End of, as far as I'm concerned.
 
On the other hand, I'm reminded of that Champion Stakes winner Dettori rode about ten years ago. Weaved a path all over the course yet the Turftrax transponder found that the horse covered less ground than anything else!

Was that Dubawi in the QEII that was run at Newmarket when Ascot was being rebuilt (Starcraft won it)?
 
yes it was he claimed he lost the race only becuase starcraft had covered less ground when as you state it was in fact the other way around
 
Re the CH, think back to how the race appeared to be unfolding - before we had access to the sectional information. Hurricane Fly was in trouble at halfway. Walsh was clearly unhappy with the way the horse was travelling, scrubbing and cajoling him along to try and stay in touch. I remember thinking at least I don't have to worry about that one and the big G is clearly going best of everything else. I stopped short of counting my dosh because I thought he was just stretching ever so slightly at one or two of his hurdles and then he came down at the next.

I think you only have to see how the rest of the race panned out to see that the sectionals explain what looked to happen to the naked eye. I remember wondering if Hurricane Fly was closing becuse the others were wilting. I even remember thinking 'World Hurle next year' because I thought he was just outstaying them.

The sectional information is meaningless unless there is intelligent interpretation of it. Magic Eye pictures are just wallpaper if you don't know how to adjust your vision.

And how telling is the comment that MTOY ran the trip faster than Champagne Fever? I'll never back him again at this track unless the opposition is weak.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of that Champion Stakes winner Dettori rode about ten years ago. Weaved a path all over the course yet the Turftrax transponder found that the horse covered less ground than anything else!

DO
With respect, you're making exactly the same assumption others have, in believing sectional times give some magical insight that renders all previous form and profiles meaningless. They are - at best - a guide, and need to be interpreted intelligently along with how the protagonists have performed previously.
Nothing in Hurricane Fly's profile suggests he needs a stamina test to be seen at his best, having won any number of 2m races, on all kinds of ground and myriad paces, with a telling turn of foot at the business end.
Rock On Ruby, conversely, has always needed a stiff test at the distance to be seen at his best, and had his finest hour in the strongest run CH of recent seasons.
Zarkandar, likewise, was staying on strongly at the end of that race, and everything he's done since suggests he's a horse who needs further. PN has confirmed as much, stating that he's to be stepped up in trip in future.
Countrywide Flame's profile is less clear, though as a stayer on the flat he'll probably need further in time, and has the 2.5m Aintree hurdle as his next target.
Nothing in the above suggests HF has suddenly morphed into a horse that would outstay horses who need further, yet we are asked to accept that as the case here.

Fwiw, my view is that ROR set an injudicious pace, (went too quick early, without drawing others into the race) but still had enough in the tank to fight off both 3rd and 4th throughout the closing stages. HF was niggled along at one stage (about 6f out, imo) but never uncomfortably, and simply did the others for speed.
MTOY was an entirely different story, and was beaten by a pace set up specifically to thwart the opposition CF was up against.
 
We'll have to agree to differ, reet.

Until now there hasn't been anything in Ireland to give HF a test of stamia. He's been allowed to lob and quicken in nearly all his races. Rock On Ruby would struggle to win that type of race. My thoughts regarding HF over further occurred simply as a result of seeing him appear to outstay horses that had gone too fast for too long. He might not be a stayer.

Rock On Ruby drew almost everything bar HF into the race last week, which is why they all collapsed too.
 
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Reet, I have to say I think you're the one being obtuse here as you seem unable to accept that the Fly outstayed them up the hill. He's always stayed further and Mullins is even suggesting going for the French Champion. Perhaps last years performance really was below par as his trainer has suggested? You seem to be using last years race pace and sectionals to substantiate your argument which seems at odds with your general argument.
 
Geez! and here was I thinking he was a horse with more ability to quicken than Rock On Ruby....you learn something knew every day.

Be taking on Big Bucks soon
 
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Reet, I have to say I think you're the one being obtuse here as you seem unable to accept that the Fly outstayed them up the hill. He's always stayed further and Mullins is even suggesting going for the French Champion. Perhaps last years performance really was below par as his trainer has suggested? You seem to be using last years race pace and sectionals to substantiate your argument which seems at odds with your general argument.

Not at all, Aragorn:
30th December 2012, 11:21 PM #165
reet hard

While I'd agree that ROR won the race through stamina, I'd have a problem accepting Hurricane Fly lost the race through lack of it.
Ruby said that HF didn't find when asked to pick up coming down the hill, before stamina was likely to be an issue, and his 2/3 over 2.5m, and heavy ground win off a strong pace at Punchestown, all suggest the answer lies elsewhere for his poor run last season.

The point is that 3 horses, all with less speed than HF, are mooted to have somehow failed to last a trip they'd proved adept at previously, and from a fair way out.
 
The point is that 3 horses, all with less speed than HF, are mooted to have somehow failed to last a trip they'd proved adept at previously, and from a fair way out.
... because they used up so much energy in the first 12f of the race.

Mo Farah wouldn't stay 2 miles if he tried to keep tabs on David Rudisha for the first 800m.
 
... because they used up so much energy in the first 12f of the race.

Mo Farah wouldn't stay 2 miles if he tried to keep tabs on David Rudisha for the first 800m.

Neither would David Rudisha finish 2nd.:lol:

ROR, the horse that set this supposedly shattering pace, was more or less level with the 3rd and 4th approaching the last, yet had enough in reserve to beat them both off.
Hardly a sign of a horse at the end of his tether?
 
Only compared with the ones behind him!

Watching it again there on C4 during the NH interview, I'm now convinced Grandouet would have won.

Obviously I'm biased but reading between the lines of NH's words, you suspect he thinks so too. "It was too far out but he was just sat there and you felt he was about to do something very exciting." Presumably his opinion is informed by Geraghty's lowdown.
 
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