Champion Stakes

chroniclandlord said:
In fairness, it wasn't that bad. Of the six horses immediately behind Literato, five were Group 1 winners either before or subseqently, and the other won a Group 2.
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no point letting facts get in the way of some good old generalisations though

you can't win on here Lord..they all know best and never admit when they wrong
 
EC1 said:
i think i conclusively proved to you that the ground was soft on Sunday..i ain't doing it twice..you didn't have the grace to admit you were wrong and now want to talk about variances..yours were wrong ..i know that much
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You didn't prove anything, you made a few throwaway comments about comparing times with a few selected races from some past renewals of the races without doing any mathematical analysis on the times. The only way to discover the true state of ground is to use maths on the times against standard times and omitting any quickly or slowly run races, it's the first rule of compiling speed ratings.
 
Gamla Stan said:
You didn't prove anything, you made a few throwaway comments about comparing times with a few selected races from some past renewals of the races without doing any mathematical analysis on the times. The only way to discover the true state of ground is to use maths on the times against standard times and omitting any quickly or slowly run races, it's the first rule of compiling speed ratings.
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lmfao

you were so ill informed on Sunday it were unreal

thats one of the funniest replies i ever read on here..you got some neck..i'll say that for you
 
I'm not getting into hurling insults EC, I just like to use a mixture of statistics and opinions and I find time based statistics the most solid in my own punting and use them alongside opinions and thinks I note. I happen to agree with Hamm's noting of the tendency of big named horses to flop in the English Champion Stakes.

I have replied to you in the Miling Division thread with my workings where we were debating the state of the Longchamp ground and I will continue to discuss the Champion Stakes on this thread.
 
I've always thought Vision D'Etat was a special horse and never really given the credit in this country he deserved. I hope Twice Over stays in the market and all of the others continue to get talked up.
 
Please re-read my post and stop making a fool of yourself.
 
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betsmate said:
I've always thought Vision D'Etat was a special horse and never really given the credit in this country he deserved. I hope Twice Over stays in the market and all of the others continue to get talked up.
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I'd agree that Twice Over and certain others make this a good race to play on but at 4/1 I'd want more evidence that Vision is as good as he was last year before wading in.
 
I think anyone can forgive a run in Dubai and from the comments in-running he hosed up in a G3 on his return. Any evidence that he isn't as good?
 
Eric Libaud speaking prior to that G3:

Eric Libaud, trainer of Vision D'Etat

"He was very stiff when he came back from Dubai and I just cantered him for two months; he's now back in racing condition and he seems back to his best and fortunately he was not marked psychologically by his experience in Dubai. However, this race is not his objective and he won't be fully wound up. Later in the season we'll be looking at the Champion Stakes and another Hong Kong Cup."
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamla Stan





The race often has a couple of big names but the form is usually quite unpredictable due to it coming at the end of a hard season and it's something of an after thought for some horses.

Especially for horses after a hard race two weeks previous in the Arc.
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Soon wont be. Revamped at Ascot. Big profile. Big money.

Give a few years and the Arc will be seen as a trial for the Champion stakes
 
Love to know what you are basing this on Clive?

clivex said:
Soon wont be. Revamped at Ascot. Big profile. Big money. Give a few years and the Arc will be seen as a trial for the Champion stakes.
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According to the new agreement, from 2013 to 2017, the prize money of the Qatar Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe will be 4.8m Euro per year. From 2018 to 2022, the total will rise to €5.3m.

They will need to find plenty of money for the Champion to compete with the Arc on any level let alone prizemoney...this is the new deal for the Arc prizemoney...France is currently the "it" country for breeding and that is where the prestige lies.Are they really going to have a 5.3 million race at Newmarket? Me thinks not...
 
In fact the total prizemoney for the whole Champions Day is "only" going to come to £3 million and if it does not hit the ground running next year they will struggle to maintain this.

France has created a colossus and it really is pointless (and indeed needless) trying to compete with it.
 
Give it ten years and the lure of Ascot and a proper british racing atmosphere and the arc will be a listed handicap played out to 2000 people and shunted to ATR2 between the dogs and jumping from Kelso.

Believe me
 
clivex said:
Give it ten years and the lure of Ascot and a proper british racing atmosphere and the arc will be a listed handicap played out to 2000 people and shunted to ATR2 between the dogs and jumping from Kelso.

Believe me
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Yeah good man Clive.
 
Given that Longchamp is already a better and fairer track than Ascot with a better surface they're about to redevelop the stands at Longchamp, I think the Arc will only be cemented as the jewel in European racing's crown rather.

The atmosphere at Longchamp is better than anywhere else for me.
 
I agree with Clive. The field in this race each year shows why it makes sense to shake it up.

Not sure if moving it to Ascot is the right idea, but I haven't heard any better.
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More seriously, thats pretty much how I see it. No one could complain (except those that are anti uk racing maybe) if the race was strongly revamped and more of a genuine draw.
 
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The atmosphere at Longchamp is better than anywhere else for me.
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Ive only been once, but better than Cheltenham?

Also, isnt it a bit dependent on UK racing fans for that atmosphere. Maybe they will chose the big day at Ascot in future
 
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