Cheltenham Festival Handicaps 2018

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I don't think that there's a thread for this yet and probably not much action until entries are made but with NRNB in place now may be a good time for speculative bets.

A few random points that I've collected:
- still a young race but the highest OR to win the Fred Winter is 134.
- some Irish trainers may enter Trials Day handicaps to get an early idea of a UK mark.
- there will no doubt be horses who achieved a workable mark as novice hurdlers last season and are now trying novice chasing but may revert to a handicap hurdle at the Festival.
- the Close Bros Novice Hcap Chase last season had an OR range of just 137-142 for 20 runners. I believe that the upper limit has been raised to 145 this season but it will remain an art getting in.
 
Personally, it's way too early for me to be betting in the handicaps.

We don't know their marks, we don't know if their existing marks will be affected in the interim, and every handicapper will get multiple entries, regardless of whether they're hurdlers or chasers. The markets are also ultra-competitive, and likelihood is you can bet to similar odds on the day, without tying-up capital for two months.

I just don't see the upside myself, archie.

Happy to see the thread started, mind. :lol:
 
A bit early for me too but I feel I can't afford to ignore the fact they're coming down the line for the reasons archie says.

Love those handicaps!
 
Handicaps interest me more than anything.i love hcaps 5f to 4.5m

One horse for me isnt in the betting yet in the 3m hcap chase on the first day.used to be called the Ritz.is it the Ultima.

TEMPESTATEFRESCO

this horse really impressed me when he won.you could call it the winner 4 out but has disappointed since but maybe it was the going.
If this tizzard horse runs i will do my nuts.
 
I've actually took a bet at 16's on Single Farm Payment e/w in the Ultima after he got beat at Ascot (I think you can still get that price). I can't see him progressing to other things as was thought he may do earlier in the campaign. I could only see a couple of options for him really that was to wait for the Bet Bright at Kempton as its after the weights come out for the National or to go back and attempt this again. In fairness I'm not his biggest fan and not as keen on his abilities as some on the forum. I do believe though he's just a better horse at Cheltenham I think it suits his style of running more. I think the current 2 at the head of the Market Cause of causes will run in the Cross country and Gold present will probably progress to better things before this. So I'm 90% sure he'll end up back here and if he does I can see him being around half those current odds on the day. Will he win ? Probably not its more than likely he'll find one or two, too good for him but I can try and find those nearer the day if I hold a decent position on him.

Ivan Gorbatov (excuse the spelling ) He's one I've had my eye on. Looks for all the world as if he hasn't been off at all this season. It was pointed out to me by someone else yesterday that he would probably head to the County again where he ran well last year. My guess is the handbrake will be firmly applied until the festival and may well be a JP gamble. He could certainly end up lower in the handicap than last year when finishing third. I certainly don't like trying to second guess gambles as that's an expensive hobby but the form is in the book his mark looks reasonable and at 25/1 NRNB I could think of worse suggestions.


Nowt serious on either for myself and wouldn't suggest anyone runs off to back them but those are just a couple of ideas.

Another couple of vague ideas I have regards handicappers although I'd have no idea what the plan is with them. The first is Vaniteux I've watched a few of his runs and they are playing around with his tack. He was tried in blinkers in the Peterborough Chase and to my eye its was the best round of jumping he'd displayed for a while although admittedly the pace was slow he was travelling really well for a long way but didn't really see out the trip. They removed the blinkers and tried some other combo for his next run. Why if something seemingly worked well would you remove it ...unless that wasn't "the day". I think he's easing towards a winnable mark and I'd be very interested to see him in a handicap dropped back to two miles with blinkers and a tt in combination. If a festival handicap was on the agenda the you'd have to think the Jonny Henderson would be the one although that is a sketchy guess.

Another one of Pipes that I'm probably more interested in is Vieux Lion Rouge. The overall target is obviously the National. The form of his run in the Grand National trial last year looks incredible although he came up short in the big one itself. I have to admit that via an e/w double with Double Shuffle in the KG I already need this one to make the first 4 in the National this time around for £1500 so my view might be rose tinted. Although he had form early in his career on Heavy ground where I think he was winning in spite of conditions rather than because of them. I think he's a much better animal with a better surface to go on. He's put in 2 completely lack lustre performances thus far this campaign and I fully expect him to do the same on Saturday in the Peter Marsh at Haydock which will probably be his last run until after the weights come out. After the weights come out I think you'll see a different animal and sometimes horses for the National have prepped in something like the Ultima or the Kim Muir. Off the top of my head I can't recall how close the National drops to the Festival this year but if he did turn up there off a further reduced mark ( if of course running poorly in the Peter Marsh ) then he'd be of serious interest.
 
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Oh better get this one in also one I wrote for my place yesterday. Excuse the silliness.

The Juveniles.

If I haven't got a clue about Novices then I'm absolutely daffy ducked when it comes to this lot.

We have the Triumph and the Fred winter. Although I do have a very simplistic approach to the fred winter that stood me in good stead before going into semi retirement that has to wait until much closer the day. however there is a matter of vital importance.

Mister Chow

He's a horse that caught my eye when finishing 2nd last time out pulled ferociously hard throughout the race and finished very strongly. Those 2 things coupled always make me sit up and take notice as a horse who can do much better when getting involved in a stronger race. This lowly rated all weather yak looks like he could be a lot better under this code. That race was really slowly run and the winner has been put up to 133. Mister Chow has yet to receive a rating and isn't in any list for the festival events. I get the feeling though he might be able to get himself a mark and sneak in to the Fred Winter. No bets available atm so what was the matter of vital importance I hear you cry ?

Well if I can't be the first person to say that hopefully Mister Chow will be leaving the bookies with a Hangover .. then I simply couldn't live with myself.

https://youtu.be/ugaZihPC10I
 
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Le Patriote is one that I shall be looking out for after the Lanzarote.

When dropped back in trip ?

Actually just to add to that as that was my initial thought when I watched the race. Is 127 a bit low to get into a festival handicap ? Off the top of my head it is. I saw someone once attempt a February handicap system based around horses that had festival targets who were just a bit too low to get in or borderline. The system was basically they would be trying for their lives in February on a "win to get in " basis.

I think he'd be a candidate for that.

Although I wouldn't be expecting much of a price.
 
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Yeah that was my thought that he's most likely to go to the Ultima again hence the bet at 16's as he's not going to be that price if lining up off his current mark.
 
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When dropped back in trip ?

Actually just to add to that as that was my initial thought when I watched the race. Is 127 a bit low to get into a festival handicap ? Off the top of my head it is. I saw someone once attempt a February handicap system based around horses that had festival targets who were just a bit too low to get in or borderline. The system was basically they would be trying for their lives in February on a "win to get in " basis.

I think he'd be a candidate for that.

Although I wouldn't be expecting much of a price.

Yes.

Bottom weight ran off 135 in the County last year.
 
Oh better get this one in also one I wrote for my place yesterday. Excuse the silliness.

The Juveniles.

If I haven't got a clue about Novices then I'm absolutely daffy ducked when it comes to this lot.

We have the Triumph and the Fred winter. Although I do have a very simplistic approach to the fred winter that stood me in good stead before going into semi retirement that has to wait until much closer the day. however there is a matter of vital importance.

Mister Chow

He's a horse that caught my eye when finishing 2nd last time out pulled ferociously hard throughout the race and finished very strongly. Those 2 things coupled always make me sit up and take notice as a horse who can do much better when getting involved in a stronger race. This lowly rated all weather yak looks like he could be a lot better under this code. That race was really slowly run and the winner has been put up to 133. Mister Chow has yet to receive a rating and isn't in any list for the festival events. I get the feeling though he might be able to get himself a mark and sneak in to the Fred Winter. No bets available atm so what was the matter of vital importance I hear you cry ?

Well if I can't be the first person to say that hopefully Mister Chow will be leaving the bookies with a Hangover .. then I simply couldn't live with myself.

https://youtu.be/ugaZihPC10I

Mister Chow lands a bit of a gamble in the first at Warwick be interesting to see what mark he gets.
 
I think that Coo Star Sivola will stand a decent chance in the Close Bros if he gets in. Currently on 135, I'd suggest that he needs to win tomorrow and go up to above 140. Likely to be trying.
 
I’d never considered this before but can/would the BHA assess a UK horse’s rating for a performance in Ireland?
 
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Phil Smith often assesses performances in Ireland by Irish horses, never mind British-trained ones.
 
Fair point.

Pity as I reckon Hell's Kitchen has more ability than we've seen to date and he's currently on 145 which is the ceiling for the Novice handicap on the first date - in which I'd give him a great chance - but I see Fry has entered him in a couple of handicaps at Leopardstown over this weekend and if he runs well it could see him handicapped out of it.

But then again they're both open company; one a Grade A and another Grade B; and JP has a host of entries so even if he does run maybe he'll run sufficiently badly enough to leave his BHA OR alone.
 
I thought as I'd posed a bit of a question to Double J about a horse called Mohaayed a few days back about what rating you would give him, that it was pretty unfair as I don't really have an answer myself :lol: other than I know he has a fair bit in hand. Not being one to give advice as I'm not too far removed from the kid who thought backing the first favourite at Bloemfontein was the next big thing :rolleyes: I thought if I could translate some of the workings into words along with some other bits and bobs there might at least be a useful point or two and if it highlights a well handicapped horse for the festival then so be it.

The first thing that will grab your attention when looking at (going to call him Mo for ease) Mo is that he's been done by Irish Roe last time out and that one has been raised significantly since. I'll use this as the primary line of form to highlight his chances. The basic premise is that he's narrowly been defeated (for now we'll take the Jockeys claim into account) conceding 4lb to a horse who after just one more run is rated in the mid 140's and he's rated 139 still. The form has been franked as they say. It might well be franked again when Amour De Nuit runs in the Scottish County Hurdle this weekend. This is the sort of thing Joe public will pick up on and its an easy enough point of view that your average Morning line pundit can roll it the viewers without thinking and sound like that they are in the know. Joe public might get lucky this weekend with regards Amour de nuit as I'd picked up on this line of form weeks ago but Amour De nuit was not a horse I'd have been following from it.

Its always important to watch the replays when taking a view and try to make a more informed judgement of the collateral lines. Amour de nuit travelled very strongly in the race too keen by far and found little in a finish. These sort of horses I tend to avoid as more often than not they don't pay. However from my days of dabbling in the dark arts (speed figures) and it was only dabbling so not an area I'm strong in I seem to recall that Musselburgh was one of the fastest hurdle courses in the country. I recall thinking that if you ever had a horse who you thought may be suited to a 1m6f hurdle then Musselburgh was probably your best hope. So perhaps he sends it here and along with the Irish roe form and the "Paul Nicholls doesn't go to Scotland for the battered Mars bars" type opinions then he could be a popular winner but I wouldn't expect too much of a price. The only reason I point this out is that I won't be doing cartwheels if he wins nor will I be reaching for the shotgun if he gets beaten out of sight. It is important to always take a balanced view of collateral form lines working out, don't get carried away with good ones and don't get too despondent with the bad.

A closer look at Mo's performance tells you he was probably a bit unlucky to get beat against Irish roe. He's got the last 3 hurdles wrong and made a complete mess of one of those. He was making rapid headway at the finish and in another yard or so would have caught the well handicapped filly. Horses that hurdle badly can and generally do hurdle badly again however in this instance I'm prepared to cut the horse a bit of slack. It was the first time he'd been ridden by claimer Bridget Andrews and the worst he's jumped. He seemed to jump a lot better at Kempton next time when back under his regular pilot. So potentially if he'd cleared the last 3 hurdles better then he'd have beaten Irish Roe conceding 4lbs. Taking into account that Irish roe given age and experience could be improving from race to race anyway but then the same could be said for Mo. So a horse that could have beaten Irish Roe conceding 4lbs and she's now rated 144 after just one more run could give you an approximate figure of 149 which would be 10lb in hand of his current mark of 139. That's approximate and still allowing for Bridgets claim being worthwhile where as you could on this occasion have taken it as a penalty. Also the way he finished could suggest that on a stiffer track like Cheltenham and perhaps a stronger pace he'd be worth a little more.

To work from one line of form is always dangerous/insane so its always best to look for secondary lines that back the opinion up. For this we'll use the Christmas Hurdle. Straight away the lazy will utter the words of flattered by proximity which will always be a case when a low rated animal take on higher rated animals in a small field and very often it can be the case but its always best to take a closer look. As I haven't actually worked this out yet and I'm thinking as I type I'm not sure if it will actually work out well or not but we'll give it a go.

I'll just for now use a 1lb per length ratio to try and glean some sort of idea. There is somewhere a universal guide to weight to lengths and from memory its either 0.9 or 1.1lb but I laugh at such things. Whilst having a rule of thumb to work to is a must to suggest its an accurate science is fairly ridiculous in my eyes. I dare say some will disagree but to me it can only ever be a ball park area of judgment. To anyone who disagrees or try's to convince you that it is the "law" I'd simply take a step back and apply a bit of common sense. I always look at things like this. If Eddie Halls and Louis Theroux were asked to carry a certain weight a certain distance would it have an equal effect ? Of course not. So why should things be different when dealing with horses. Some horses are your Eddie Halls ( Denman, Kingscliff ) and some your Louis Theroux's or Ronnie Corbett might have been more apt ( Lady Rebecca, Dom samuri ) its simply can't be an exact science. The same as carrying weight in bad ground. Carry a bag of cement 50 yards on a concrete floor and then try and carry it through wet sand or mud. That's before we even get into the weight of the jockey v's the saddle weights issue. We need that rule of thumb to work to but I'm not to sure of its value in reality but its narrowly favourable to pondering the imponderables until the dawn of time. If anyone is still certain that its a rock solid thing then take an even wider view that in reality we are 6 billion talking monkeys on a spinning rock in an infinite mass of nothingness discussing which horse can run fastest around a track. How certain can we be of anything ? Some days I'm not sure even that I exist and that I'm not just a hallucination of some young lady's magic mushroom fuelled fantasy...erm back to handicapping then.

How mo fared in the Christmas Hurdle.

Beaten 6L by 169 rated Boover brings him out at 163
Beaten 4L by 163 rated The new one brings him out at 159
Beat 146 Rated Chesterfield 4L brings him out at 150.

Hurrah! The biggest certainty ever seen in the county hurdle..yeah not that simple is it. Boover won as he liked so no point trying to take a rating from him. Chesterfield is probably better on better ground and had only run 7 days earlier so I don't like rating through him. The new one however was flat out and can be used as a reliable yardstick however he certainly hasn't run up to his official rating here and has certainly run below par the question being, by how much?. If we look at the New ones other efforts this season and see if we can get some sort of idea of where he is at.

I'd probably start with his most recent outing in the Champion hurdle trial he's conceded 6lb to 156 rated Ch'tibello and narrowly got the better of him in the final strides (it still hurts). That brings him out quite high but taking a more realistic view from Unison back in third I have him coming out at around 152 which I'm far more comfortable with.

In the international at Cheltenham you could come up with all sorts of ratings through various horses but its notable that given Ch'tibello raced off the same terms and given he was beaten slightly further but hampered then you could take it they've run to exactly the same level and I'd be happy to suggest given the bunched finish and lack of pace making any rating suspect that I'd happily go with a mark in the low 150's again.

His Welsh Champion hurdle conceding 8lb to 147 rated Clyne brings him out at 155. I'm actually likely to think this run was a lot better than that and I think Clyne has run his absolute socks off to the point where it broke him as he hasn't gone a yard since however I'll settle for 155.

The New ones run in the Greatwood you'd be hard pushed to say he hasn't run right up to his mark. Given the winner and the second there bagged the Golden highway and its probably flattered them both. Old guard in 3rd is as reliable yard stick as one could wish for and TNO has gone down to him narrowly conceding lumps. I'm not looking for his best performance though I'm in search of his worst.

If we said that looking through that lot The New one has been 152 at worst and adjust his mark at Kempton to that then we could rate Mo' at 148 not to far removed from what I had him at after the Irish roe run. Flattered by that ?...hardly!. If you then watched the replays of the Christmas hurdle if anything was flattered by proximities it certainly wasn't Mo. The race was run at a quick, slow, quick tempo in the way that the New one has set off at a gallop slowed it up before trying to kick for home off the front end. The worst thing that you can do in these situations is let the leader snatch a couple of lengths whilst you get caught napping as the ground is difficult to make back up. This is what happened with mo' although in fairness there was never really any intention of making an effort to win the race. He was there to race for third pick up 12k and hopefully not finish too close to the big boys as to get whacked by the handicapper. Plan executed brilliantly by the jockey. Evidence of this when the New one started to run flat out out Mo's jockey sat still keeping an eye on Chesterfield. When he did finally consent to show a bit of effort in the saddle Mo' put Chesterfield away quite easily and as he jumped the last the jockey has a cheeky look over his shoulder to see Chesterfield is beat and then eases down. If anything after watching this a couple of times I think it more than likely points to him having a stone up his sleeve but I'll settle for my magic number of 10lb.

In terms of ever sizing one up for Cheltenham its always nice too see course form and spring form. He was beat 3 lengths off a few lb's lower than he is now in last years County. Some might say if he couldn't win last year why can he win off a higher mark now? Well quite simply he was a novice of very few runs last year and being thrown into the carnage of a Cheltenham handicap is a baptism of fire. With that and his run in the Scottish Champion hurdle making him less wet behind the ears now, it offers hope and also that still a young horse on the up, should be and looks as if he's going to be a very progressive type.

I've included him in some small multi's for the festival thus far and nothing really serious as although I've done quite a write up on him he's not a standout by any means. I'd find horses that I think are well handicapped every day and I dare say I could find another 10 to make a case for in the County itself. I've just really posted the thought process for someone like Double J or anyone of even less experience to have a look at and see if there is anything they can take from it. More to the point if any one fancies giving me a pointer as to anything I'm getting insanely wrong then they are more than welcome. There will always be different workings for everyone as to a horses mark and as said I don't think its an exact science but if you can identify 33/1 shots that you think are potentially well handicapped then I don't think you can go too far wrong. I like the Bruce Lee theory of "concentrate on the finger and you'll miss all the heavenly glory". In others words peoples views on the details of the workings will vary but I think anyone would find it hard to go against the view that the, "Heavenly Glory" in this case is that Mohaayed is potentially very well handicapped and available at a decent price somewhere soon.

That's the best I can manage through the misty night shift fog of a sleep deprived mind but to any beginners out there.. come handicapping ! It certainly beats trying to fathom graded races and trying to decipher the Di Mullins code :).
 
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There's definitely something afoot with Mohaayed.

I'd backed him for the Greatwood and everything went wrong. Firstly it started pissing down in the 48 hours before the race so I was sure he'd be scratched but no, Skelton ran him anyway on ground he was certain to dislike.

Then when it was blatantly obvious to the world and their wife that the outer was the place to be brother Skelton gave him a less than arduous ride on the inner.

If ever a race could be written off and excused it was that.

The problem is he was subsequently lowered 2lb and they put a claimer on him to take off another 3lb next time out but he was still beaten at Donny when conditions should have been fine, yet upped 4lb again as a result.

and then if you have any desire to protect a handicap mark it's not the wisest thing to run your 139 rated horse against the 169 & 163 rated Buveur D'air & the New One in the 4 runner, Grade 1 Christmas Hurdle - on soft ground. Luckily he managed to earn connections nearly 13k without suffering a rise in the weights so if taken at face value he's a certainty off 139 in whatever he runs in

I'm just not sure what to make of him anymore.
 
There is no doubt that on a literal reading of the Kempton form Mohaayed might be extremely well handicapped. I have '??sl' annotated above the race because of the very slow time. The double question mark pretty much speaks for itself. It means I have to seriously questions the form. The 'sl' is to remind me that the time was very slow hence I should be wary of the form. This annotation was borne of bitter experience in earlier years' punting.

I'm always wary of taking such slow races, especially non-handicaps, at face value.

That's not to say I wouldn't back Mohaayed in a forthcoming handicap. It really means if I did back it I could already have a reason for its not justifying the rating.
 
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