Coral Eclipse Stakes

From memory, rather than the books...

Peintre Celebre was 138 in the Arc.
MOntjeu was mid-high 130s.
Hawk Wing was off the scale but clearly the Lockinge exaggerated his ability. Nevertheless, HW's 130+ in the Derby suggests he would probably be mid-high 130s at a mile.
Dubai Millennium was something like 138 in the DWC.

Any others you had in mind? (If you can tell me the race/year of any particular performance I can check them.)
 
Gareth Flynn said:
Racing Post Rating of 131.
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Sometimes you find the RPRs are amended after a week or two. I wouldn't be surprised if they came back with increased figures. I can't think of any valid reason for thier assuming both Steele Tango and Jukebox Jury failed to run their races. A similar thing happened the year Mark Of Esteem won the Sussex. They hadn't credited the horses MOE had beaten previously as having run to form but I did and it put MOE something like 8lbs higher than either RPRs or Timeform. I cleaned up that day when MOE bolted in a mile clear.

I've never forgotten - getting all anecdotal now - the way Raceform upped the form of the Hennessy almost every week for a couple of months after it. In the days of 0-100 ratings, they started off with Galway Blaze on 78, which I thought laughable. As each of the beaten horses came out and ran big races elsewhere they kept upping the figures until GB ended up rated 100 without even running.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
I've seen plenty of people on here and other forums bang on about the pace in the Derby who I normally wouldn't associate with being Coolmore advocates.
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and I have seen many who had little interest in pace before our Derby who seem really interested in it now that it might involve making excuses for Coolmore horses losing.

in fact when I have mentioned pace before it normally gets little response or interest..except..oooh speed figures mean little..its winning that matters and handicap ratings..its not a time test etc....now it seems to be mentioned daily

the Derby was slow early..yes..quite a few are..but this years has been mentioned more than any other in that respect..its an attempt to run down the winner imo.

i've been thinking it for a while..so I might as well just say it

I wonder if any mention of pace would have taken place had F&G won it?

best appreciate good horses when they come along..it matters not which stable they in imo
 
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:)

I just don't know why people get stable allegiances and then feel the need to pooh pooh a horse just beacuse it doesn't amanate from said stable

i hope STS just goes on winning
 
2lb more than those boasted by Rip Van Winkle
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That surely was more than a 2lb beating. I'd want a 5lb difference in weights at least before contemplating the possibility of a reversal of result.
 
It's impossible to quantify how much STS had in reserve so I wouldn't attempt to. I'd just put a '+' beside the rating and wait to see what any weights turnaround might be. However, it's hard to imagine this horse running in anything other than G1s so there would never be a weights turnaround anyway.
 
What's curious about the RPR is that three horses ran in the Eclipse that ran in the Brigadier Gerard Stakes over course and distance, yet they've all been given lower ratings yesterday:

Code: 
[b]Horse			Brig	Eclipse[/b]
Conduit			121	120
Cima De Triomphe	115	110
Steele Tango		109	103

Short of rating the race through only Sea The Stars and Rip Van Winkle (i.e. in the low 120s), that seems about as conservative a rating as you could come up with using collateral form alone.

To me, it is surprising that the 6lb beating they had CDT give Steele Tango in the Brigadier Gerard hasn't been matched up with the 7lb beating they had CDT give him yesterday.

They may well be proved correct; I can't wait to find out.
 
The Derby was a very slow one, the slowest Derby in my lifetime.


Sea The Stars is a top class 10f horse, and at the moment is higher in my figures than Fame And Glory but in 12f in gs in a truly run race I prefer Ballydoyles horse.
 
It's not possible these days, it seems, for all parties just to glory in an exceptional horse's achievements because of the huge financial impact. Coolmore will trot out the excuses because STS is a big threat to their new supersire, STS's half brother, GALILEO.Being by CAPE CROSS, a Darley sire, does not help their cause any.

STS may not make it as a super sire - hell, these days he may not even be fertile - I have no idea where he'll end up after his racing career is over but it's well-known that URBAN SEA's owners allegedly fell out with Coolmore a while back.

So that's why the fairly 'anti' Coolmore comments have been aired everywhere !
 
Two great posts Songsheet.

While very much acknowledging the stature of the Irish Champion Stakes (one of my favourite races), a race which, the last couple of renewals aside (a couple of Coolmore benefits and a poor renewal last year, has produced some memorable races and often serves as a meeting point for the year's best horses, does anyone feel Oxx is making a massive mistake by making that the ultimate next target?

He is much more likely to get his ground at Ascot and York (new drainage), and then a decision could be made after York as to whether the horse was able to run at Leopardstown (ground and condition of the horse).

There is a worrying piece in the Guardian today stating Sheikh Mohammed is stepping up plans to buy the colt (stud duties I presume) which would affect (or possibly curtail) his racing plans. This would be one of the most disappointing things I could imagine in racing.
 
Way late I appreciate, but it was a great race to watch. Kinane was very canny and moved at exactly the right time. From where we were it, appeared STS idled a bit in front until RVW came at him, but it always appeared to us that he was easily holding him. From a spectators' view and a love of horses, it was a brilliant race and a brilliant horse won. So glad I decided to go and see him in the flesh again.
 
I don't think Secretariat could handle a muddy track. Anyone verify?

I really hope the Tsuis avoid both Coolmore and Sheik Mohammed. Might STS stand at the Irish National Stud?

Agree that Coolmore have something to be nervous about - I think STS's pedigree is more intriguing than Galileo's and could make him an even more versatile sire. Of course, as Songsheet has warned, what stallion makes a good, let alone great, sire is always a bit of a lottery. However, I would be surprised if STS can't make it with the quality of mares he will certainly attract.

Re the alleged falling out of the Tsuis with Coolmore - can anyone shed more light on it? I remember reading somewhere that Urban Sea was going to go to Montjeu the season she actually went to Cape Cross because Mrs. Tsui had fallen in love with Ouija Board. Does anyone know if that is true?
 
Hamm said:
While very much acknowledging the stature of the Irish Champion Stakes (one of my favourite races), a race which, the last couple of renewals aside (a couple of Coolmore benefits and a poor renewal last year, has produced some memorable races and often serves as a meeting point for the year's best horses, does anyone feel Oxx is making a massive mistake by making that the ultimate next target?

He is much more likely to get his ground at Ascot and York (new drainage), and then a decision could be made after York as to whether the horse was able to run at Leopardstown (ground and condition of the horse).
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This is why I was saying in the King George thread that they should go for that first and worry about the others later. I wouldn't be taking the ground at York for granted any more than Leopardstown's, new drainage or not.

BTW, I hope you're not referring to the great battle between Ouija Board and Dylan Thomas as a "Coolmore benefit"!
 
Interesting little tidbit from The Guardian:

The Timeform organisation yesterday declined to offer a preliminary verdict on Sea The Stars' performance in the Eclipse, though for the encouraging reason that this may be "a rating that is referred to for years". The implication appears to be that Sea The Stars will be rated as a genuine champion but one with plenty of improvement still to come.
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Edit: and yet, from The Mirror of all places:

Timeform yesterday hailed Sea The Stars as the best Coral-Eclipse winner since Nashwan after his breathtaking victory in the Sandown showpiece on Saturday.

The son of Cape Cross became the first horse since the Dick Hern-trained colt in 1989 to complete the 2,000 Guineas-DerbyEclipse treble with his onelength defeat of Rip Van Winkle, with the older horses well beaten off.

That performance earned the John Oxx-trained bay a provisional rating of 132 - with a 'p' indicating the Halifax-based experts expect him to get better.

"In a historical context, the provisional rating of 132p makes Sea The Stars the best Eclipse winner since Nashwan," Timeform's Simon Walker said yesterday. "He's got the complete package - looks, speed, stamina and temperament.

"Zarkava earned a rating of 133 when she won last year's Arc, and Sea The Stars is almost there."
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Gareth Flynn said:
What's curious about the RPR is that three horses ran in the Eclipse that ran in the Brigadier Gerard Stakes over course and distance, yet they've all been given lower ratings yesterday:

Code: 
[B]Horse            Brig    Eclipse[/B]
Conduit            121    120
Cima De Triomphe    115    110
Steele Tango        109    103

Short of rating the race through only Sea The Stars and Rip Van Winkle (i.e. in the low 120s), that seems about as conservative a rating as you could come up with using collateral form alone.

To me, it is surprising that the 6lb beating they had CDT give Steele Tango in the Brigadier Gerard hasn't been matched up with the 7lb beating they had CDT give him yesterday.

They may well be proved correct; I can't wait to find out.
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My take exactly, Gareth.
 
Gareth Flynn said:
This is why I was saying in the King George thread that they should go for that first and worry about the others later. I wouldn't be taking the ground at York for granted any more than Leopardstown's, new drainage or not.

BTW, I hope you're not referring to the great battle between Ouija Board and Dylan Thomas as a "Coolmore benefit"!
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Yes, that one slipped my mind! However, it's been a few years (Oratorio's race I think) since there has been good strength in depth. I'm sure it'll come back to prominence in years to come, and perhaps a clash between Sea the Stars and Fame and Glory would put it right back up there (& surpass even this year's Arc).
 
Gareth Flynn said:
[quoting the Mirror, quoting Timeform]

"Zarkava earned a rating of 133 when she won last year's Arc, and Sea The Stars is almost there."
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Does anyone seriously believe Zarkava could beat STS at wfa/s?

Zarkava's Arc has been grossly over-rated. However impressive she was, it wasn't a great field. I can't get her figure above 124, equivalent to 127 in a colt.
 
Andy said:
A great horse goes on any ground
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I also disagree with this.

By the same misguided criteria, you could also say not only should a great horse go on anyground, but should be able to win at a variety of distances.
 
Look at the Arc finishing order:

1. Zarkava
2. Youmzain
3. Soldier Of Fortune
4. It's Gino
5. Vision D'Etat
6. Ask
7. Duke Of Marmalade.
8. Getaway
9. Cima De Triomphe
10. Meisho Samson (Jpn)

That 133 for Zarkava makes Youmzain 133 too, unless they've credited the winner with a few extra pounds for the ease of victory (which I don't mind, but they have to be consistent and do the same with STS).

I rated the Arc via my pre-race figure of 121 for Ask. It makes the other pre-race figures very close to where I had them. It puts me in another 'Oath' situation. While he was generally being proclaimed a 'proper' Derby winner, I was struggling to get him above 118.
 
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