Cracksman

Desert Orchid said:
The most ridiculous comments of the day - and not for the first time - have to go to Chapman who seriously tried to argue that Cracksman had run his race. That kind of incompetence deserves sacking.
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I actually think he has Des.

I think it sort of depends on your view before the race as to how you viewed it afterwards. I expected Salouen to run him close and I also expected the German horse to be in the mix so for me the result was exactly what I expected therefore I think Cracksman has run his race. Has he produced his best run ever ? No but then would you ever expect him to at Epsom over 1m4f ? That was probably as well as he can perform there. Personally I think he's a very good horse but also overhyped. It made me laugh when I listened to everybody's reaction to it afterwards about it being a below par run. It was a solid group 1 performance.


I'd suggest some of those who feel it was disappointing go and re-watch last years Derby and only keep their eyes on Salouen. Watch it a few times and then ask seriously are we surprised that Salouen has run Cracksman so close with a clear run ? I'd bet a pound to a piece of **** that all the T.V pundits who were slagging Cracksman on the basis that Salouen had finished so close wouldn't have even recalled him running in the Derby. Maybe if they paid that sort of attention before the race and not just assume that the 2/7 fav has a walk in the park then their pre race analysis may improve as may their betting exploits.


Remember that's a dual group 1 winner well beaten in third who had conditions to suit yesterday. Idaho beaten 8 lengths in 4th was beaten 7 lengths in the Arc last term and 5 lengths in the King George both times by Enable. Also only beaten 5L in the Japan cup and come into this off the back of a decent win at Chester.


Open minds fellas.
 
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Maybe it depends on how you define 'run his race'.

Cracksman is an early/mid 130s horse. The highest OR of the rest was Hawkbill's 122 (I have him at 124). Salouen was 110. As you know, I'd have backed the German horse if there were three places in the market but if he had an OR it would probably have been about 115. Salouen was unlucky in last year's Derby but wouldn't necessarily have won.

If the expectation was that Cracksman would run to his Derby form then clearly he was no good thing. Why, then, was he 2/7? Because his subsequent form elsewhere was a league apart from his Derby form. I don't recall seeing anyone on TV or reading anywhere that Cracksman was expected merely to run his Derby form before the race. They've clearly learned now, and probably once and for all, that sending him to Epsom is a very risky proposition.
 
Relative to the other races yesterday the Coronation Cup was run in a very respectable time, nearly two seconds faster than the Oaks and with a faster pace per furlong than any other race on the day.
 
I think he hated the ground. If you watch him early, his head keeps nodding down as he hits a sticky patch, a sure indicator that a horse is struggling to handle conditions. I think he did exceptionally well in the circumstances as Salouen was given a very enterprising ride. Had Dettori not switched him up against the rail, he probably wouldn't have got there.
 
Biggest laugh yet making excuses for this very ordinary by classic standard animal.
.cant get my head round why anyone would want to skip the light fandango and go there
 
Talks of bringing him to Royal Ascot seem optimistic given he had a tough race on unsuitable ground yesterday.
Eclipse or King George a better option but not for me to second guess J Gosden who makes very very few mistakes.
 
Did he really have a hard race, though?

He was unable to show his best form and that would lead me to believe he maybe didn't take too much out of himself.
 
Desert Orchid said:
I don't know about tip-top condition (I can't judge these things in the flesh let alone on TV) but I thought he was never travelling. It was going through my mind listening to the immediate post-race interviews about him not coming down the hill that he wasn't travelling up the hill in the first part of the race either. I thought Dettori's arms were fairly active on him from the start and wondered if all was well.
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Gosden has just said on RUK that the horse gave his head a fair old bang on the gate and may have been dazed. He said he could understand the not going on the downhill section but not the uphill early section and he's apparently concluded that the bang on the gate was the reason.
 
Here's hoping the real Cracksman turns up tomorrow following Epsom. I think he will, certainly hope so as I've chipped away backing him ante-post the last couple of months.
His performance last October was sensational at Ascot & can't be having the opinion some have that he is average.
I'm now tempted with 11/4 with Sky bet to win by 3 lengths + tomorrow.
 
You could be right on with that bet Danny

We occasionally get a good field for this race but it's not never consistently been the creme de la creme of Group 1's by any stretch of the imagination.

Considering he's already beaten the 2nd fav by 7 lengths he should be winning this desperate renewal hands down.

If he does win it like an odds on shot should it shouldn't be changing anyone's opinion of him.
 
Never went a yard, clearly losing interest in the flat game.

Stick a flight of hurdles in front of him; might liven him up. :p
 
Hopefully Gosden will get him back to his best in due course but for the time being it was almost worth seeing him beat to stick it right up Chapman and shut his monster gob.
 
I think there's a chance Cracksman will not run again. Personally I felt he needed soft ground and yesterday's going did not suit him: but there was more to it than that. Apparently he was very coltish in the pre-parade ring. Unlikely to have him lose two stones so I'd have thought a convenient injury on the gallops with retirement to the covering shed is a likely outcome.
He was a good horse who appeared very good on soft ground, but he was never outstanding.
 
Eleanora Duse said:
I think there's a chance Cracksman will not run again. Personally I felt he needed soft ground and yesterday's going did not suit him: but there was more to it than that. Apparently he was very coltish in the pre-parade ring. Unlikely to have him lose two stones so I'd have thought a convenient injury on the gallops with retirement to the covering shed is a likely outcome.
He was a good horse who appeared very good on soft ground, but he was never outstanding.
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The rewards for being a lech...

If it were me, Mrs O would have carried out the operation on me herself with a blunt knife and no anaesthetic :lol:
 
Plenty of horses in the past have had a pronounced soft ground preference, just as others have a fast ground preference (Alpha Centauri probably).
 
simmo said:
Plenty of horses in the past have had a pronounced soft ground preference, just as others have a fast ground preference (Alpha Centauri probably).
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Mill Reef? Nijinsky? Brigadier Gerard? Frankel? Sea The Stars? Enable?
Hard to think of any true 'Greats' that couldn't perform near their optimum on neutral ground. Always had Cracksman down as a trifle over-rated, but - given his recent form - wouldn't surprise if he never ran again.
 
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