Isinglass
At the Start
Too true ..... grateful one of us can still have a nice thought. 
Departures 2010
- Thread starter Aldaniti
- Start date
rorydelargy
At the Start
Horsey heaven, though. Really?
Yes, but it's in a different spiritual dimension to humans. God's creatures and all that. But I believe they're several levels above us, as are dolphins, whales, sheep, and beetles. Seems we are still piss-poor along the evolutionary trail and have a long way to go before sitting at the right hand of, etc.
I know he's not a thoroughbred, but the greatest QH sire of all time, First Down Dash, has passed away in California at the age of 26. His offspring have so far won over $73million, and 200 of them are black type winners. He traces in the male line to Friar's Balsam, champion 2-y-o of 1887 (including Middle Park, Dewhurst etc) and 1888 Champion Stakes winner.
A quite magnificent physical specimen, as you can see.
A quite magnificent physical specimen, as you can see.
trudij
Senior Jockey
Hes gorgeous.
Isinglass
At the Start
I love him, a real stamp of a horse.
I learned to ride on QHs. You've got more to hang onto!
Thanks for sharing Ven.
I learned to ride on QHs. You've got more to hang onto!
Thanks for sharing Ven.
Kri, the modern QH is a mixture of thoroughbred and older "foundation" QH lines.
The QH has plenty of strength, size-wise they tend to be around 15 hands or so. FDD stood 15.2 hands.
Here's First Down Dash's pedigree, you can look back through the generations: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/first+down+dash
The QH has plenty of strength, size-wise they tend to be around 15 hands or so. FDD stood 15.2 hands.
Here's First Down Dash's pedigree, you can look back through the generations: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/first+down+dash
He's gorgeous - thanks for posting that, Ven. Sometimes wish it was permissable to inject a bit of QH into the breed here... US QH breeders can use STORM CAT, I believe, via AI which is permitted for them. Bearing in mind the dire state of the equine economy, diversifying the product to include TB/QH bred racehorses with a couple of additional races for them per raceday might not be a bad idea....
Beautiful classic breeding over a hundred years ago - GALLINULE, ORMONDE, BEND OR... thanks very much for that most interesting insight, Ven. I think BEND OR was one of the first racehorses which sparked an interest in how horses became what they are when I was about 12. I still have the book - Horses of Britain by Lady Wentworth, and there's a b&w photo of A.C. Havell's superb painting of the horse. He looks such a perfect specimen, with a refined head, good girth, lovely slope to the shoulder, and a rounded backside with a properly set tail. In fact, I've just pulled it out of the shelves to look at it again, and see at some point I've scribbled below "BEND OR, Glensil's great, great, great grandfather". Glensil (GLEN ALBYN - SILVER BIRCH) was my first TB, his sire being a winner of South Africa's July Handicap run at Durban. It was through 'Glennie' that I became interested in finding out whose parents and parents' parents into infinity continued to put a certain stamp of conformation, action, and ability upon their successors.
Lady W has gone to some pains to add a brief table of repeat crosses of some foundation sires of our classic winners, showing also the repeat crosses of the Arabian mare, OLD BALD PEG.
Fascinating to see what I later noted in Libya and Saudi Arabia (the different types of the so-called 'Arabian') in the book, viz, SUN CHARIOT's direct sire line being the Darley Arabian, and she belongs in direct female line to No.3 Bruce Lowe family, which traces back to the same as No.2 (Burton Barb mare). BIG GAME was from the same sire line, and he descends in female line from No.6 - the Arab mare OLD BALD PEG - so not only is she his tap root mare, but he has over a quarter of a million repeat crosses of her blood!
It's this sort of deep pedigree research and detail which is utterly fascinating, if more than beyond my scope of intelligence. You look at what breeders of old were trying to produce and then look at what arrives at 2 or 3 y.o. on a course, and think, "yes, yes, I can see that there" or, conversely, "wtf happened?"!
I can't help myself, I've got to quote Lady W's discourse on what makes for a good TB. It goes on a bit, so it probably won't fascinate everyone, but each time I think of it, I enjoy seeing how much - and how little - it applies to who we see battling for the finish line today. Here goes (you might want a cuppa and a biscuit to accompany this lengthy quote):
It is difficult for the public to realise the full magnificence of class TB conformation as the horses they see on racecourses are mostly immature youngsters in hard training, numbers of which look weedy, ewe-necked and high on the leg. There is nothing finer than the highest type of classic stallion in full maturity. The ideal TB should have a small alert head with straight or slightly concave profile; large eye, broad forehead, elegant throttle, small sharply-cut mobile ears; long, nicely-curved neck (strongly crested in stallions); deep chest; long shoulder with high withers laid well back; elbows free and forelegs set well forward; back of medium length with immensely strong loins and level quarters with tail well set on (thank you, Lady W! - my favourite bete noir is a low-set tail) and often well carried.
The quarters and thighs cannot be too long and powerful and muscular as this is where the propelling force comes from; there is an extremely straight drop of hindleg; joints are apt to be rather small and cannon bones (shins) too long - but these are defects; great bone is not required so long as the tendons are strong and straight and well-defined. (Personally, I prefer a short cannon-bone, but they're not that usual.) A goose rump (where the rear-end drops sharply to the tail) or drooping quarters are not good signs and the best sires are long, but very level, behind and the hips filled up with muscle. Height from 15.2 to 17 hands.
He should stride out well at a walk - the hind feet well overstepping the track of the forefeet; his action when trotting should not be high; galloping he should stretch out with immense freedom of shoulder action with a smooth, sweeping stride, covering the ground with consummate ease and bringing his stifles well forward with a powerful swing, something like a greyhound.
Up and down or rounded action, jerkiness or clumsiness, detract from speed as also does a habit of changing lead legs, star-gazing, or flinging the head about (what the Americans call 'reefing'). Gliding and swinging best describes the proper galloping movement.
TBs are of sensitive, highly-strung temperament and rough usage quickly spoils their tempers. Early racing during teething time makes them inclined to fractiousness and irritability, but they are naturally of a friendly disposition and amenable to good horsemanship.
The greatest miracle of the age which puts Britain in the highest rank of horse breeders is the modern TB speed. It reached its climax when MAHMOUD won the Derby in 1936 (this book appeared in 1944) in the record time of 2 minutes 33 3/5ths seconds. HYPERION and WINDSOR LAD had previously held it with 2 minutes 34 seconds. MAN O'WAR beat the lot 2 mins 28 4/5 seconds and PHAR LAP with 2.29 over 1m 4f, but not on the Derby course. Speed has been steadily increasing and nothing else in the world can compete with it. Unfortunately, but perhaps naturally, stamina has decreased equally rapidly and the old 4 mile heats are never run at all. (Audible gasp!) It is doubtful whether extreme sprinting speed can be combined with extreme staying power as they are possibly antagonistic powers. A weight-lifter is not built like an acrobat and a conformation which specializes one thing may be harmful to another.
Soundness is becoming a serious problem. Laminitis, split pasterns, unsound hocks, sprained tendons, bad tempers and increasing barrenness are some of the evils which attend premature racing and which may go on getting worse. (Well, in 2010 they certainly haven't got any better.)
Meanwhile we have some horses to be proud of. HYPERION has proved that a small horse may not only beat records in speed, but also record as a sire of winners. He and MAHMOUD have made hay of the racing prejudice against horses with four white feet, and greys. We owe the preservation of the grey colour to France, through LE SANCY and ROI HERODE, from which we got the transcendant wonder horse THE TETRARCH, TETRATEMA, MAHMOUD, the flying MUMTAZ MAHAL and other grey winners all going back to the White Alcock Arabians.
(I love this next bit.) Prices are rapidly increasing to a staggering degree. The top price broodmares being 17,000 guineas, and the top prices for stallions, 40,000-62,000 guineas. Well-bred yearlings may fetch anything from 2,000 to 14,000 guineas. (I'd have settled for 1940s prices in 2008!)
Hope that's been interesting - I would love to be recommended one or two easily-understood books on more of the same, if anyone knows of them. Ven... ?
Lady W has gone to some pains to add a brief table of repeat crosses of some foundation sires of our classic winners, showing also the repeat crosses of the Arabian mare, OLD BALD PEG.
Fascinating to see what I later noted in Libya and Saudi Arabia (the different types of the so-called 'Arabian') in the book, viz, SUN CHARIOT's direct sire line being the Darley Arabian, and she belongs in direct female line to No.3 Bruce Lowe family, which traces back to the same as No.2 (Burton Barb mare). BIG GAME was from the same sire line, and he descends in female line from No.6 - the Arab mare OLD BALD PEG - so not only is she his tap root mare, but he has over a quarter of a million repeat crosses of her blood!
It's this sort of deep pedigree research and detail which is utterly fascinating, if more than beyond my scope of intelligence. You look at what breeders of old were trying to produce and then look at what arrives at 2 or 3 y.o. on a course, and think, "yes, yes, I can see that there" or, conversely, "wtf happened?"!
I can't help myself, I've got to quote Lady W's discourse on what makes for a good TB. It goes on a bit, so it probably won't fascinate everyone, but each time I think of it, I enjoy seeing how much - and how little - it applies to who we see battling for the finish line today. Here goes (you might want a cuppa and a biscuit to accompany this lengthy quote):
It is difficult for the public to realise the full magnificence of class TB conformation as the horses they see on racecourses are mostly immature youngsters in hard training, numbers of which look weedy, ewe-necked and high on the leg. There is nothing finer than the highest type of classic stallion in full maturity. The ideal TB should have a small alert head with straight or slightly concave profile; large eye, broad forehead, elegant throttle, small sharply-cut mobile ears; long, nicely-curved neck (strongly crested in stallions); deep chest; long shoulder with high withers laid well back; elbows free and forelegs set well forward; back of medium length with immensely strong loins and level quarters with tail well set on (thank you, Lady W! - my favourite bete noir is a low-set tail) and often well carried.
The quarters and thighs cannot be too long and powerful and muscular as this is where the propelling force comes from; there is an extremely straight drop of hindleg; joints are apt to be rather small and cannon bones (shins) too long - but these are defects; great bone is not required so long as the tendons are strong and straight and well-defined. (Personally, I prefer a short cannon-bone, but they're not that usual.) A goose rump (where the rear-end drops sharply to the tail) or drooping quarters are not good signs and the best sires are long, but very level, behind and the hips filled up with muscle. Height from 15.2 to 17 hands.
He should stride out well at a walk - the hind feet well overstepping the track of the forefeet; his action when trotting should not be high; galloping he should stretch out with immense freedom of shoulder action with a smooth, sweeping stride, covering the ground with consummate ease and bringing his stifles well forward with a powerful swing, something like a greyhound.
Up and down or rounded action, jerkiness or clumsiness, detract from speed as also does a habit of changing lead legs, star-gazing, or flinging the head about (what the Americans call 'reefing'). Gliding and swinging best describes the proper galloping movement.
TBs are of sensitive, highly-strung temperament and rough usage quickly spoils their tempers. Early racing during teething time makes them inclined to fractiousness and irritability, but they are naturally of a friendly disposition and amenable to good horsemanship.
The greatest miracle of the age which puts Britain in the highest rank of horse breeders is the modern TB speed. It reached its climax when MAHMOUD won the Derby in 1936 (this book appeared in 1944) in the record time of 2 minutes 33 3/5ths seconds. HYPERION and WINDSOR LAD had previously held it with 2 minutes 34 seconds. MAN O'WAR beat the lot 2 mins 28 4/5 seconds and PHAR LAP with 2.29 over 1m 4f, but not on the Derby course. Speed has been steadily increasing and nothing else in the world can compete with it. Unfortunately, but perhaps naturally, stamina has decreased equally rapidly and the old 4 mile heats are never run at all. (Audible gasp!) It is doubtful whether extreme sprinting speed can be combined with extreme staying power as they are possibly antagonistic powers. A weight-lifter is not built like an acrobat and a conformation which specializes one thing may be harmful to another.
Soundness is becoming a serious problem. Laminitis, split pasterns, unsound hocks, sprained tendons, bad tempers and increasing barrenness are some of the evils which attend premature racing and which may go on getting worse. (Well, in 2010 they certainly haven't got any better.)
Meanwhile we have some horses to be proud of. HYPERION has proved that a small horse may not only beat records in speed, but also record as a sire of winners. He and MAHMOUD have made hay of the racing prejudice against horses with four white feet, and greys. We owe the preservation of the grey colour to France, through LE SANCY and ROI HERODE, from which we got the transcendant wonder horse THE TETRARCH, TETRATEMA, MAHMOUD, the flying MUMTAZ MAHAL and other grey winners all going back to the White Alcock Arabians.
(I love this next bit.) Prices are rapidly increasing to a staggering degree. The top price broodmares being 17,000 guineas, and the top prices for stallions, 40,000-62,000 guineas. Well-bred yearlings may fetch anything from 2,000 to 14,000 guineas. (I'd have settled for 1940s prices in 2008!)
Hope that's been interesting - I would love to be recommended one or two easily-understood books on more of the same, if anyone knows of them. Ven... ?
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Bar the Bull
At the Start
Not a nice way to go.
That is correct - leg injury.
Very sad, wasn't he the one who ran out at Cheltenham last year?
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Obviously a good horse, but was he the worst Supreme winner of the last 20 years? Sausalito Bay may run him close.
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Bar the Bull
At the Start
Okay; thanks.
Fecking Aga Khan and his poxy names.
Fecking Aga Khan and his poxy names.
krizon; I can just look at the three foundling stallions and their progeny, just saying the names to myself! And, the bit in National Velvet that goes on about 'the glorious ancestress Pocahontas whose blood ran down like time into her flying children' makes me go weak at the knees....I live in Derby and I understand that the Tetrarch raced there; now a scruffy bit of grassland next to the cricket ground, but whenever I drive past it I think of him being there.....I was horrified to see that fall in the hurdle race today where 4 hourses came down; it seemed like forever before they told us that most of them were ok and the one taken away in the ambulance didn't seem too bad. Took the edge of the afternoons racing.