Epsom Derby

I'm not a vet, but Fallon's face in the stalls showed he was not a happy bunny.

By the way for all those of you who scoffed at the BBC's decision to keep Derby on BBC1 straight after the footie, the race got its biggest TV audience for years.
 
In the interest of accuracy:

From the RP

Coshocton may have suffered a heart attack

Published: 10/06/2002 (News) JON LEES
COSHOCTON may have suffered a heart attack before his collapse in the closing stages of the Vodafone Derby, his trainer Michael Jarvis suggested yesterday.
A post mortem is to be carried out on the body of the chestnut colt but Jarvis said the Predominate Stakes winner had given no previous cause for concern.
Coshocton collapsed, fracturing his near-fore leg, in front of the massed crowd which included the Queen, and had to be put down. Jockey Philip Robinson was taken to hospital for a chest x-ray.
Jarvis said: "A post mortem is being carried out but there is a possibility the horse had a heart attack and then when he went down his leg snapped. We have to wait for the outcome of the post mortem.
"He was a particularly sound horse. He never took a lame step in his life and he never had a bandage on a leg either, so it was completely unexpected. His owner, John Phillips, was obviously very upset, but his family are horse people and they understand that these things happen."
Robinson was badly winded by the fall but, after extensive physiotherapy, he expects to be back in action at Nottingham today.
"I'm stiff all over my neck, back and groin and a bit chesty," he said yesterday.
"Coshocton ducked right two out and I wasn't quite sure of the reason. I put my stick down and got him balanced to run down the straight again and then he did it again half a furlong from home and went down.
"I think he may have suffered the injury two furlongs out and kept running on with adrenalin until he could get no further, and just before the line he went down.
"With the undulations at Epsom I just didn't know what had happened two out. Before he did that I thought he would be a good third. He was then running straight and on an even keel again and I thought we would be fourth, but then he went down again.
 
Originally posted by rumoursabound@Jun 5 2006, 01:16 PM
An opinion is not a fact, even though it was printed in The Guardian.
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And that is precisely what I said above, which, I guess, renders your post redundant
 
Cheltboy writes

I'm not a vet, but Fallon's face in the stalls showed he was not a happy bunny
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CB - I must ask why you need to be a vet to interpret Mr Fallon's facial expressions? Is it because you suspect him of being a disconsulate rabbit?

So Fallon, allegedly looked unhappy in the stalls, which I think is a key point because he is usually a little ray of sunshine.

Does anybody think Linda's Lad should have been withdrawn because Frankie certainly looked a bit moody too.?
 
A denial does not necessarily equate to a fact Brian.

AOB undoubtedly made an error of judgment.

A rider who effectively had the choice of almost 30% of the field and is riding the second favourite is not going to alert his trainer to a problem for nothing.

As to how hard we should be on O’Brien is quite another thing. He trotted him up and down several times and contrary to what people are suggesting he did not appear to be lame and according to Fallon felt better the more he trotted.

The racing press does its best to gloss over this sort of thing, but O’Brien was wrong. He knows he was wrong. We are nevertheless all fallible. It would have taken someone of utmost integrity to have erred on the side of caution. O’Brien was lacking on this occasion.
 
Out of interest - you should really trot a horse up on a hard surface such as a tarmac road since turf will often give the impression that the horse is sounder than it actually is.
 
So Steve your telling me, without any doubt, that you know/are certain that Horatio Nelson's misfortune was directly related to the "problem" before the race and was a major factor in it?

If so, I(and I am sure the rest of the forum) would be really interested to hear how you know....
 
Aidan - dont be so silly.

He knows he was wrong.
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Steve has the ability, like Spock, to mind meld. He has looked inside Aidan and has told us what he has seen. All other conjecture is now redundant. If we ally this to the tape and the lip reading it is a closed case.
 
I'm half expecting someone to claim that JP McManus had £100k with Paddy Power that Horatio would be pulled up.
 
I know he didn't die, but Fight Your Corner fractured a hind(I think) cannon bone in his Derby. They think he did it about half way round, yet he still ran on really well in the last 1/4 mile and jock thought he'd just about win the Leger.
 
I am with SteveM here; and, too, thought that Fallon looked more worried than normal when they showed a close-up on telly (did watch the Derby with some friends over here so got the BBC-coverage, and we all had the same impression); and very obviously a "mistake" was made when allowing Horatio to run; because he did not survive the race. I mean - how many horses are checked before the start by a vet (and the trainer is driven there as well?) - Well, not many; and how many acutally die later in that very race???? We do not, and will never, know whether the accident that claimed Horatio´s life was -pure and simple- a wrong step or is directly related to him feeling "stiff" going down - but we do know that Horatio broke down and a wonderful animal lost his life under somehow "suspecious" circumstances, sorry if a better word is eluding me here.

And sure Fallon and o`Brien will have some feelings about it, is only human to think after:" Well, if I just would have done this/that, it would have never happend" The way I see Mr. o`Brien he will most certainly blame himself, but clearly we will never know; this is something you tell your family or a close friend and not the press. Losing a horse of Horatio Nelson´s calibre well no doubt even hurt Coolmore.

We do not know what would have happend if HN would have been scratched?! Would the same thing have happend at home?

The bottomline is that a wonderful equine athlete lost his life, and will we learn something from it ? Will we listen next time?
 
how many horses are checked before the start by a vet (and the trainer is driven there as well)?
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O'Brien was already scheduled to go down to the start. It had nothing to do with Horatio Nelson's wellbeing. I wonder, had he not been there would Fallon have taken the cautious approach and withdrawn him.

To be honest. If a vet gives the ok, and the horse looks fine at the start, he would need to be giving very bad signals on the way down to withdraw him. I don't think Fallon ever got off the horse, which maybe was a sign that he wasn't that worried beforehand, maybe he was worried that he wouldn't run well, but not that he was injured.

I think it stretches the point to say the mistake would have been avoided in any other race or by any other team.
 
Fallon couldn't have withdrawn the horse at the start Mel - jockeys don't have that power althoguh they are talking about it at the moment.

Taken from the RP :

HRA may grant jockeys starting authority


by Jon Lees (June 5)
JOCKEYS could be given the authority to withdraw horses at the start if they have any concerns about their mounts’ health or fitness to race as a result of a review of procedures being carried out by the Horseracing Regulatory Authority.

At present only the starter, acting on the advice of the racecourse vet, has the power to withdraw horses, even in cases where riders have expressed concerns.

HRA officials were already looking at the protocol before Saturday’s Derby in which Horatio Nelson suffered a fatal injury, having been examined at the start and passed fit to race.

This followed an incident at Musselburgh last month when jockey Fergal Lynch wanted to pull out joint-favourite Kirkby’s Treasure because he felt the horse was “drunk and distressed”. The horse was examined by the vet, who could find nothing wrong, and allowed to take part but finished tailed-off last.

Fallon was involved in a similar incident three years ago with Mr Ed, who was also passed fit to race by the vet at Goodwood, despite the jockey’s misgivings.

Jockey Club spokesman Owen Byrne said on Monday: “There have been a numberof incidents over the past few years in terms of a difference of opinion between jockeys, trainers, veterinary surgeons and starters over the withdrawal of a horse at the start.

“At present the power lies with the starter to withdraw a horse, but he acts on the advice of the veterinary surgeons, who can be put in a difficult position. They clearly haven’t ridden a horse to the start but on occasion can find no obvious signs of a horse being unfit to race. The most recent incident at Musselburgh has already prompted us to look at the procedures down at the start.”

Fallon has underlined that on Saturday he was happy for Horatio Nelson to take his chance in the race after trotting the colt around at the start. He said the colt was injured when “he hitone of those uneven bits of ground and twisted a joint. It doesn’t take much on that camber for a horse to lose his footing, and that’s where the damage was done”.

Epsom clerk of the course and director of racing Andrew Cooper, who would welcome HRA clarification on procedures at the start, said: “I am sure Kieren was talking about the camber rather than a vast difference in the ground conditions. No one would deny that Epsom is a difficult and challenging course but I would argue with anyone who saysit is unsafe. That is why we take a lot of trouble over the going.”
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It would take a very stupid vet to insist on a horse running against the advice of a jockey, especially where multi million pound potential stallions are concerned. It would seem there is at least one of them about.
 
Yet it's happened in the past, hence why they are currently reviewing the rules. I agree with you though and think this rule should have been changed a long time ago.
 
A vet can insist that a horse runs when the jockey thinks the horse is lame??

Fallon could have been seriously injured, can't believe a vet would overrule in this sort of situation.
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Jun 5 2006, 10:29 PM
So Steve your telling me, without any doubt, that you know/are certain that Horatio Nelson's misfortune was directly related to the "problem" before the race and was a major factor in it?

If so, I(and I am sure the rest of the forum) would be really interested to hear how you know....
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I was speaking to my Dad last night and he feels that the horse more than likely had a stress fracture beforehand to have shattered so dramatically and this was why the horse was feeling "off" in the preliminaries. Obviously he wasn't on site but he has been a qualified vet for about 50 years including being one of the Cheltenham Festival vets for about 10 years in the 80s/90s
 
Fallon could have pulled him up after a furlong. The fact that he didn't puts paid to any notions that he was being forced to ride him against his better judgement.
 
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