Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Just throwing in a couple more options to the equation.
Epsom Derby
- Thread starter Guest_
- Start date
It would be argued that could be the very reason for NOT running him.....why run a horse with an injury in the Derby? Forget about the worst case senario (as in the death of the horse) but the horse would almost certainly lose thus effecting his future stud career.
That's what I was thinking to a lesser extent Songsheet. Jenny Hall would have had to have the proverbial balls of steel to pull out a gambled on Coolmore 2nd fav, with a worldwide tv audience, and with someone of AOB's stature in attendance. If Aidan wasn't in the business of supervising loading himself, what scenario might have played out then? Is it really unreasonable to presume that the conversation between Hall and Fallon might have resulted in a different decision? of course we'll never know, and Gal's right to say we don't know what happenend between the 3 key principals (would I be right in saying Coolmores own vet was in attendance incidentally?). The thing that puzzled me slightly, is that surely more damage would have been done to HN's reputation had he finished down the field (especially on the back of the Guineas). I'd have thought therefore that the commercial imperative which is so often cited as the driving force behind Coolmore, dictated that he shouldn't run if there was doubt?
My instinctive reaction was that there was a disagreement, but this is based on a reading of body language, and I've got no way of knowing whether I'm right, or even whether this was a particularly trenchent exchange, or a polite questioning of trainer from jockey etc. Kierens distinctly seen shaking his head on the stall camera after loading, which suggests he to be in an unusal and distracted state of mind about 30 seconds before the gate open? Certainly not the composure of a focused professional who believes his horse is a few minutes away from winning the Derby. Also the look of thunder on his face, (he was in the background packing his bags, despite having a ride booked in the last when Dwyer was stalked around the weighing room by Rishi), had the look of a man who'd been proven right and over ruled. I accept that I could be reading too much into this, that I'm no expert on such issues, and I don't know what was said between the key principals (which isn't the strongest position to argue from admitedly!!!!!) but I've worn that 'told you so' look too many times myself to mistake it.
Ultimately we'll probably never know, as its going to be kept in house. I personally feel Kieren was uncomfortable with HN lining up, but that's probably as far as he went and is a long way of suggetsing that he'd advised pulling him.
My instinctive reaction was that there was a disagreement, but this is based on a reading of body language, and I've got no way of knowing whether I'm right, or even whether this was a particularly trenchent exchange, or a polite questioning of trainer from jockey etc. Kierens distinctly seen shaking his head on the stall camera after loading, which suggests he to be in an unusal and distracted state of mind about 30 seconds before the gate open? Certainly not the composure of a focused professional who believes his horse is a few minutes away from winning the Derby. Also the look of thunder on his face, (he was in the background packing his bags, despite having a ride booked in the last when Dwyer was stalked around the weighing room by Rishi), had the look of a man who'd been proven right and over ruled. I accept that I could be reading too much into this, that I'm no expert on such issues, and I don't know what was said between the key principals (which isn't the strongest position to argue from admitedly!!!!!) but I've worn that 'told you so' look too many times myself to mistake it.
Ultimately we'll probably never know, as its going to be kept in house. I personally feel Kieren was uncomfortable with HN lining up, but that's probably as far as he went and is a long way of suggetsing that he'd advised pulling him.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
I am ashamed to say that I was cynical enough to think that the performance before the race was readying an excuse for his defeat. :shy:
Anything Fallon felt when cantering down to the start would have been felt more at racing pace. Horatio Nelson not only travelled well, but he held a beautiful position for a long time with little trouble/effort. This leads me to think there was nothing wrong with the horse.
But if there was, and Fallon was against running the horse, surely he had every opportunity to pull the horse up...as if there was something wrong he would have felt it early in the race.
But if there was, and Fallon was against running the horse, surely he had every opportunity to pull the horse up...as if there was something wrong he would have felt it early in the race.
Colin Phillips
At the Start
I would have thought that as well, Gal.
R
rumoursabound
Guest
Coolmore are not unknown for running cripples and finishing them off in high profile races, nor do i contribute to the school of thought that they love their horses.
Note their usage of pacemakers and the disposal of horses that don't cut the mustard,or theArc 4th that can't win a Class 22 hurdle race.
I reckon that i am all on with my view, but there you go, no rose tinted binos for me.
Note their usage of pacemakers and the disposal of horses that don't cut the mustard,or theArc 4th that can't win a Class 22 hurdle race.
I reckon that i am all on with my view, but there you go, no rose tinted binos for me.
betsmate
At the Start
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2004
- Messages
- 5,752
So let me get this straight....
Some people on here believe that Kieran Fallon reported that all was not well with Horation Nelson, but Aidan O'Brien chose to ignore him and run the horse regardless - in order to do this he had to pressure the racecourse vet into allowing the horse to run. Kieran Fallon then continue to ride the horse for 10 furlongs - knowing that there was a problem - until the horse broke down?
Sorry - not a chance.
Some people on here believe that Kieran Fallon reported that all was not well with Horation Nelson, but Aidan O'Brien chose to ignore him and run the horse regardless - in order to do this he had to pressure the racecourse vet into allowing the horse to run. Kieran Fallon then continue to ride the horse for 10 furlongs - knowing that there was a problem - until the horse broke down?
Sorry - not a chance.
I don't think that's quite what's being suggested BM.
Fallon asked the question, he clearly wasn't comfortable, but that's along way from saying Fallon told O'Brien, and Aidan over ruled him. The trotting display, is clear evidence that something wasn't right, and Aiden, Jenny Hall and Fallon to a lesser extent tried to make an assessment of the horse, based on Kierens concerns. I don't think this is tantamount to 'ignoring him' BM? Quite the opposite, its evidence that they acted on what Fallon flagged, but ultimately made an incorrect judgement call. To my eyes Kieren still wasn't comfortable, but only in so much as he had doubts. It's a big jump to say Kieren knew etc
I'm assuming its a bit like driving a car which you suspect might have something slightly wrong with it but you're not quite sure? Sometimes you'll get away with it, and performance isn't affected and other times it'll start failing. (if someone could tell me if there's any grain in this analogy I'd appreciate it for my own understanding, as I've never ridden, nor intend riding a horse, in my life, and consequently wouldn't know how a suspect one feels, nor how certain you can be about one under these circumstances).
The next bit is conjecture as no one knows who said what to who, and how the decision to let him go was made. To my eyes Kieren looked uncomfortable, but again that's a long way from saying Kieren advised them to pull out and was over ruled. Ultimately, Coolmore are his employers. I've tried to imagine what was going through Jenny Halls mind and the pressure she must have been under for those couple of minutes. If it were a selling plate at Southwell on a Sunday, what would have happened? If Aiden hadn't been at the stalls doubtless offering a second (and lets not forget) a valued and valid opinion based on years of experience, what might have happenend?
To look at it a different way (again I don't know how relevant the anology is) but it reminds of the classic cricket commentators contradiction when they condem an expansive shot outside off stump as irresponsible if it takes an outside edge an he's dismissed, and yet if it hits the middle and fly's away for a boundary its widely applauded? It strike sme that its not the decision, but rather the execution and outcome that is being judged?
Fallon asked the question, he clearly wasn't comfortable, but that's along way from saying Fallon told O'Brien, and Aidan over ruled him. The trotting display, is clear evidence that something wasn't right, and Aiden, Jenny Hall and Fallon to a lesser extent tried to make an assessment of the horse, based on Kierens concerns. I don't think this is tantamount to 'ignoring him' BM? Quite the opposite, its evidence that they acted on what Fallon flagged, but ultimately made an incorrect judgement call. To my eyes Kieren still wasn't comfortable, but only in so much as he had doubts. It's a big jump to say Kieren knew etc
I'm assuming its a bit like driving a car which you suspect might have something slightly wrong with it but you're not quite sure? Sometimes you'll get away with it, and performance isn't affected and other times it'll start failing. (if someone could tell me if there's any grain in this analogy I'd appreciate it for my own understanding, as I've never ridden, nor intend riding a horse, in my life, and consequently wouldn't know how a suspect one feels, nor how certain you can be about one under these circumstances).
The next bit is conjecture as no one knows who said what to who, and how the decision to let him go was made. To my eyes Kieren looked uncomfortable, but again that's a long way from saying Kieren advised them to pull out and was over ruled. Ultimately, Coolmore are his employers. I've tried to imagine what was going through Jenny Halls mind and the pressure she must have been under for those couple of minutes. If it were a selling plate at Southwell on a Sunday, what would have happened? If Aiden hadn't been at the stalls doubtless offering a second (and lets not forget) a valued and valid opinion based on years of experience, what might have happenend?
To look at it a different way (again I don't know how relevant the anology is) but it reminds of the classic cricket commentators contradiction when they condem an expansive shot outside off stump as irresponsible if it takes an outside edge an he's dismissed, and yet if it hits the middle and fly's away for a boundary its widely applauded? It strike sme that its not the decision, but rather the execution and outcome that is being judged?
Shadow Leader
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
It was good to see such a good finish fought out in the Derby - first one for a while now. Sir Percy did well to win and Martin gave him a brilliant ride - the difference between winning & losing - a lot of jockeys might have hesitated going for that gap.
Hala Bek threw away his chance by jinking I thought - had he not done that he would have won the race and he is the horse to take out of the race, especially considering it was only his second run and he had an interrupted preperation.
Visindar ran a good race too - for a fairly big horse he did look a little cumbersome on the Epsom undulations I thought, even though he did travel well for al ong way and I did think 2 out that he was just beginning his run to win the race but seemingly found little. I still think he will turn out to be a very, very good horse. It will also be interesting to find out more about the spots on his neck - Clare Balding had the camera train on them but you couldn't see anything as the light was in the wrong position. It sounds to me as though it may possibly have been ringworm - it often manifests itself on the neck initially and it can look like more like a heat rash sometimes. If he does have ringworm that will certainly have made him run flat.
It was bad news about Horatio Nelson too, poor little chap.
Hala Bek threw away his chance by jinking I thought - had he not done that he would have won the race and he is the horse to take out of the race, especially considering it was only his second run and he had an interrupted preperation.
Visindar ran a good race too - for a fairly big horse he did look a little cumbersome on the Epsom undulations I thought, even though he did travel well for al ong way and I did think 2 out that he was just beginning his run to win the race but seemingly found little. I still think he will turn out to be a very, very good horse. It will also be interesting to find out more about the spots on his neck - Clare Balding had the camera train on them but you couldn't see anything as the light was in the wrong position. It sounds to me as though it may possibly have been ringworm - it often manifests itself on the neck initially and it can look like more like a heat rash sometimes. If he does have ringworm that will certainly have made him run flat.
It was bad news about Horatio Nelson too, poor little chap.
Looked like hives to me..
I at no point have said they overruled Kieran, by the way, so please don't read that into my posts! What I said was that Kieran obviously had serious doubts and therefore I am amazed that coming from a jockey with his experience and stature, that you would even want to second guess him...
I'm sure Warbler's right with his car analogy - unfortunately, we're not dealing with inanimate objects here.
My reference to the Coolmore machine needs perhap further refinment. If we are using analogies here, maybe it's a bit like a government party that's been in power a long time. Or maybe a bit like a giant corporation like Microsoft. After a while, you believe you make the rules, not follow them and you start believing your own publicity. It's easily done and I really believe that's what we're seeing with Coolmore now.
I'm certain AOB couldn't have envisaged such an appalling end to HN - at worst he probably gambled on the chance that the horse might pull up lame. Sadly, this was one of those times where the worst did happen, in the biggest race of the 3yo calendar and with a huge viewing audience.
Not good.
I at no point have said they overruled Kieran, by the way, so please don't read that into my posts! What I said was that Kieran obviously had serious doubts and therefore I am amazed that coming from a jockey with his experience and stature, that you would even want to second guess him...
I'm sure Warbler's right with his car analogy - unfortunately, we're not dealing with inanimate objects here.
My reference to the Coolmore machine needs perhap further refinment. If we are using analogies here, maybe it's a bit like a government party that's been in power a long time. Or maybe a bit like a giant corporation like Microsoft. After a while, you believe you make the rules, not follow them and you start believing your own publicity. It's easily done and I really believe that's what we're seeing with Coolmore now.
I'm certain AOB couldn't have envisaged such an appalling end to HN - at worst he probably gambled on the chance that the horse might pull up lame. Sadly, this was one of those times where the worst did happen, in the biggest race of the 3yo calendar and with a huge viewing audience.
Not good.
Fallon on BBC Teletext is quoted as follows
"I just felt he was a little bit flat - he wasn't giving me the same bounce that he had done. But he was fine when I trotted him up and down a few times. In fact, the more I trotted him, the better he felt. I was happy with him. If I wasn't happy I wouldn't have gone round. He twisted a joint and that did it."
"I just felt he was a little bit flat - he wasn't giving me the same bounce that he had done. But he was fine when I trotted him up and down a few times. In fact, the more I trotted him, the better he felt. I was happy with him. If I wasn't happy I wouldn't have gone round. He twisted a joint and that did it."
Merlin the Magician
At the Start
In defence of AOB! There's only one DERBY I think if it would have been any lesser race he would have withdrawn the horse at the start, so I cant see why some are apportioning blame on to AOB, and if K-F complained I am most certain AOB would have listened to him. No one can foresee the tragic event that happened during the race it was very unfortunate, One may put it down as being sods law I am sorry to say................... 
Will those of you seriously arguing that AOB ran a horse he thought, at best, would pull up lame please kop on to yourselves.
To quote Fallon today...
"I just felt that he was a little bit flat - he wasn't giving the same bounce that he had done," said Fallon.
"But he was fine when I trotted him up and down a few times, in fact the more I trotted him the better he felt.
"I was happy with him. If I wasn't happy then I wouldn't have gone round on him.
"He travelled brilliantly on the snaff in the race then we went to go and challenge and it happened. Obviously it must have been one of the uneven bits of ground that you can get on the camber at Epsom. He twisted a joint and that did it".
I have rarely read anything as daft on here as some of the stuff above this post.
To quote Fallon today...
"I just felt that he was a little bit flat - he wasn't giving the same bounce that he had done," said Fallon.
"But he was fine when I trotted him up and down a few times, in fact the more I trotted him the better he felt.
"I was happy with him. If I wasn't happy then I wouldn't have gone round on him.
"He travelled brilliantly on the snaff in the race then we went to go and challenge and it happened. Obviously it must have been one of the uneven bits of ground that you can get on the camber at Epsom. He twisted a joint and that did it".
I have rarely read anything as daft on here as some of the stuff above this post.
And there was only one HORATIO NELSON....
I am not trying to apportion blame - what would be the point of that? But having been in this industry a long time, I am not so naive in my thinking as some on here obviously are about running horses!
As if anyone would expect Kieran to come out publicly with a different view to the official Coolmore line when he derives most of his income from them they are naive in the extreme.
But if it's meant to be acceptable that because it's The Derby or any other major race, it's OK to run a horse that even might be less than 100%, then fine - you're welcome to your views.
All I know is from what I saw, no-one could have been confident the horse [/I]was100% sound to run - they took a calculated risk and it didn't pay off.
Am I the only person that that saw Visindar and Hala Bek come past the tiring HN with about 1 1/2f to run, take his ground (legally), causing him to stumble or take a false step and break down. He also looked to break down behind as he was being pulled up. Shame. I dont know if what happened at the start was related, but while I dont have any particular love for coolmore, I find the continual carping at whatever actions they take either childish or nonsensical. So they are criticised for hiding their horse away for breeding value purposes - FITS, Fasileyev, and there was a here-we-go-again comments when GW was announced to have twisted something during the week. THis a few days after he ran in ground that was so obviously against him the week before. Seems like they are damned if they do and damned if they dont. If he was withdrawn at the start it would have been to protect his breeding value also, I'd bet.
prince regent
Conditional
- Joined
- May 2, 2003
- Messages
- 588
again i agree with garney
also some commentators commented he may have clipped heels
also some commentators commented he may have clipped heels
Then is no one is to blame or did any wrong, why has your opinion of O'Brien gone down?
Who second guessed him? He thought the horse did not feel great going down, but got him checked out at the start, trotted him up and down to make sure he was happy and he was.
To me your statement of "over ruled" and "second guess" means pretty much the same thing. So clear things up, do you think O'Brien ran the horse against Fallons wishes?
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Anyone think that the camber at Epsom had anything to do with it? I know it's the first breakdown in a while, the last I can recall was Scimitarra (in the 1989 Oaks?) but if a horse has soundness problems or suspected problems then running on a slope can't do him any good.