Fighting Fifth

[Sara]

From what Chris has told us about Katchit, whom he knew very well and rode out regularly, the horse saved himself for something he really enjoyed doing! - ie hurdling - so I don't think those flat races need have taken all that much out of him

Another horse with this kind of profile was Peter O'Sullevan's Attivo - did nothing till he went hurdling, then kept going for a while, and improved

 

[an capall]

From what Chris has told us about Katchit, whom he knew very well and rode out regularly, the horse saved himself for something he really enjoyed doing! - ie hurdling - so I don't think those flat races need have taken all that much out of him

Game set and match to the Katchit lobby. Even the delightfully eccentric Irish cannot talk to horses.

 

[Sara]

Oh I wouldn't say that AC Exaggerons pas!!

 

[rorydelargy]

Originally posted by EC1@Dec 4 2007, 12:08 AM
Katchit has NO chance of winning a champion hurdle

The fighting fifth is a complete graveyard for CH winners..and thats just for those good enough to win it...getting beat in it...= forget the CH.

Weren't (arguably) the two greatest English trained Champion Hurdlers of all time beaten in the Fighting Fifth?

 

[Shadow Leader]

Originally posted by clivex@Dec 4 2007, 10:35 AM
There was undoubtably a lot of glee and some sneering after Katchit's defeat (see another thread) dressed up as "humour".

Counsel rests. In a nutshell.

Again, I cannot in any way, shape or form accept this argument that Katchit has no improvement left in him - need I spell it out in lights? He is four years old. Just because he has raced on the flat and is small, does not mean he cannot improve. Where do people get this sh*t from? Size is not wholly indicative of whether a horse can improve or not or how much he can/will improve. Admittedly when it comes to very big horses they tend to take longer to mature as their frame takes time to fill out and strengthen. Nowhere however does that mean or suggest that small horses cannot improve!

I also find it exceptionally strange that a [4yo] horse on his first run outside 4yo company can be judged as having no earthly chance int he Champion, even more ridiculous when you look at the fact that those who are saying as much are claiming that Harchibald has a serious chance of winning the race. Sorry, did I miss both the Fighting Fifth and the Champion Hurdle 2008? I was under the erroneous impression that in the Fighting Fifth Katchit was beaten a little over 3 lengths, as well as being under the wrong impression that the Champion Hurdle 08 hasn't been run yet, ergo those who are stating how "very wrong" I am about the horse's chances in said race are guessing at best.

 

[Flame]

Originally posted by Bobbyjo@Dec 4 2007, 07:12 PM
The bet still stands Chris? Are you taking it or not?

Surely the point to make about 4 and 5 year old hurdlers etc etc is similar to a comparison between the kind of horses that win two year old races that don't train on to three. I mean, the best juvenile is not necessarily the best older horses. Clearly, Afsoun is a later developer than the likes of Katchit. Similarly, Al Eile is more of an old fashioned late developing National Hunt horse rather than a speed merchant off the flat?

I'll take the bet on the following terms;

If either fail to turn up, then the one who doesn't turn up loses the bet.

Whoever obtains the best position, so if you fall, unseat, get brought down , pull up or carried out thats tough, that counts as a loser. The horse that finsihes closer to first wins, if you fall at the first that is tough luck.

happy with that?

so its a match as it is on any match bet.

totherwise i would prefer a bet for a place with a bookie.

 

[Garney]

Originally posted by Shadow Leader+Dec 2 2007, 08:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Shadow Leader @ Dec 2 2007, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Garney@Dec 2 2007, 09:09 PM
Harchibald doesnt find much off the bridle. Wouldnt need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. However, he would beat the type of Katchit on all courses under all conditions hard on the snaff. Just too much ability.

That has yet to be proved.

That still could also be proved to be " Akin to the Ollie Magern better than old plodder Beef or Salmon remarks".[/b][/quote]

ShadowLeader,

Can I just ask you one question? Earlier, you said the above.

I dont really understand what you said. Apologies for that, and I am sorry for going back on it, but is it you think it still has to be proved that Ollie Magern isnt as good as old plodder Beef or Salmon. I'm pretty sure it was 2 years ago (after his first Charlie Hall win) but maybe you think the jury is still out on that. Again, apologies if I misundestood.

I just want to get a timeframe when we could expect to see a resolution to this Katchit debate, and whether you were right or wrong about him.

I think he is a bony little horse, and would hope he continues to progress. He has improved from last year but to me looks exposed as below top class, and doesnt deserve to second fav for the Champion hurdle.

 

[Euronymous]

Originally posted by Arazi+Dec 4 2007, 07:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Arazi @ Dec 4 2007, 07:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chrisbeekracing@Dec 4 2007, 04:46 PM
I still keep my stance on Exotic and Kauto and I don't think they would have figured in the 1st three in the Gold Cups in the early to mid nineties.

1990 - 1st Norton's Coin 2nd Toby Tobias 3rd Desert Orchid
1991 - 1st Garrison Savannah 2nd The Fellow 3rd Desert Orchid
1992 - 1st Cool Ground 2nd The Fellow 3rd Docklands Express
1993 - 1st Jodami 2nd Rushing Wild 3rd Royal Athlete
1994 - 1st The Fellow 2nd Jodami 3rd Young Hustler
1995 - 1st Master Oats 2nd Dubicilla 3rd Miinnehoma

I'm surprised you think that Kauto Star & Exotic Dancer couldn't have made the first three in these Gold Cups. Desert Orchid, Jodami, The Fellow, Master Oats & possibly Rushing Wild are the only horses listed there who I think could be any sort of a threat to Kauto Star & Exotic Dancer around Cheltenham. In my opinion Desert Orchid is the only one that would be a match for Kauto Star and even then around Cheltenham Dessie was never at his best. [/b][/quote]
Christ. Surely Norton`s Coin and Cool Ground are two of the worst GC winners ever. Unreal statement.

 

[trackside528]

Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@Dec 4 2007, 10:37 PM
Whoever obtains the best position, so if you fall, unseat, get brought down , pull up or carried out thats tough, that counts as a loser. The horse that finsihes closer to first wins, if you fall at the first that is tough luck.

Perhaps worth noting that Harchibald has never failed to complete a race in his life, Chris!

In fact, on good ground, he is probably the best hurdler I have ever seen.

 

[Warbler]

The word Istabraq looms large in my mind I'm afraid, although I could possibly accept the word mercurial at a push

 

[Sara]

Have to agree that Istabraq was the first thought in my mind too!
Don't think Harchie can hold a candle to him, in fact I prefer Hardy and Brave Inca as well

 

[Bobbyjo]

Shadow, read my earlier post....Harchi would have beaten Katchit by whatever distance he liked if another horse had pushed him more than Al Eile did. But don't worry, you are almost 100 percent wrong about every issue you weigh into with bombast so your support for Katchit is encouraging for layers of the horse. Aside from your worthy condemnation of Ardross, when have you actually ever been right about anything?

Chris, why are you so scared? If you bet each way on Katchit now with a bookie and he doesn't turn up then you will have a guaranteed loss so dont give me any bullshit

It's a simple case of non runner, no bet...Katchit v Harchibald..if both start in the Champion Hurdle then I am offering you odds of 2/1...which are probably unrealistic given what should naturally happen between now and then...500 sterling on Katchit. Fair enough, if you so wish I will remove the stipulation that if either falls then the bet is void...maybe a fairer compromise is that if either horse is brought down or severely hampered/pulled up then the bet is void...that at least proves that the fall was not due to lack of ability but moreso misfortune

Come on then? You having it?

 

[Guest_]

Katchit faces Macs Joy and Sublimity at Cheltenham on Saturday week. Interesting to see how he does there with the track in his favour...surely no excuses.

 

[clivex]

Maybe they should only have run him 2 or 3 times a year and he'd still be the best since Arkle.

THE BOS debate must surely have run its course, but such a sluggish jumper and one that was clearly worried out of it when there was a modicum of pace and more than 5 opponents could never seriously be judged that highly regardless of how many times he ran#

As for the campaigning of BOS, always baffled me why, if they seriously thought he had a chance in the GC, he didnt go for the Pilar to at least get used to the course.

Noticable how Denman's and Kauto's jumping continues to improve. Maybe a number of reasons for this, but being in the hands of the finest trainer probably has a lot to do with it.wonder what he would have done with BOS?

 

[Harbinger]

THE BOS debate must surely have run its course

Apparantly not. Kanye West would just like to remind you all about something:

 

[Garney]

Originally posted by clivex@Dec 5 2007, 09:51 AM

Maybe they should only have run him 2 or 3 times a year and he'd still be the best since Arkle.

THE BOS debate must surely have run its course, but such a sluggish jumper and one that was clearly worried out of it when there was a modicum of pace and more than 5 opponents could never seriously be judged that highly regardless of how many times he ran#

As for the campaigning of BOS, always baffled me why, if they seriously thought he had a chance in the GC, he didnt go for the Pilar to at least get used to the course.

Noticable how Denman's and Kauto's jumping continues to improve. Maybe a number of reasons for this, but being in the hands of the finest trainer probably has a lot to do with it.wonder what he would have done with BOS?

Clivex.

Why go for the pillar when you can win the Hennessey (on a course that he clearly acts on)

Hennessey valus to winner 80K
Pillar value to winner 57K

As far as I can make out BoS has won more prizemoney than any horse in training at the moment (of course Kauto Star got the million last year). His limitations were exposed at Cheltenham each time (bar the first) and it wouild be stupid to turn your nose up at that kind of prizemoney in your favoured conditions.

I do think you have a point about the trainer, but the owners cant really complain.

 

[clivex]

Fair point and a tricky choice but the horse seemed almost spooked bY cheltenham (see him pre race last time??) and i just wonder whether a little more acclimatisation could have made the difference between also ran and glory?

 

[Flame]

Originally posted by Bobbyjo@Dec 5 2007, 03:54 AM
Chris, why are you so scared? If you bet each way on Katchit now with a bookie and he doesn't turn up then you will have a guaranteed loss so dont give me any bullshit

It's a simple case of non runner, no bet...Katchit v Harchibald..if both start in the Champion Hurdle then I am offering you odds of 2/1...which are probably unrealistic given what should naturally happen between now and then...500 sterling on Katchit. Fair enough, if you so wish I will remove the stipulation that if either falls then the bet is void...maybe a fairer compromise is that if either horse is brought down or severely hampered/pulled up then the bet is void...that at least proves that the fall was not due to lack of ability but moreso misfortune

Come on then? You having it?

Okay non runner no bet is fair,

However If both start the race, whoever crosses the line first wins the bet, anyways of non finsihing the race still count that the bet is lost by that horse. This includes refusing to jump off, carried out, brought down, badly hampered, injured, falls or anything of that nature.

Also it goes on where the Racing Post places them, so if they are not in frame, the bet still counts.

I'm happy to take that if both horses fail to complete the bet is void.

Are you happy iwth this Bobby, I think this is perfectly fair?

 

[Melendez]

With respect to the both of you, this sort of bet has the capacity to end in tears. Would it not be more pleasant to make it a tenner with the winner enjoying considerable slagging rights.

It's none of my business, of course, but unless you know each other pretty well, I'd suggest you find a stakekeeper if you insist on going ahead. No reflection on either of you, but it is the internet.

 

[betsmate]

You've got a high interest account lined up Mel? ^_^

 

[Melendez]

I'm sticking well clear of it.

 

[Shadow Leader]

Originally posted by Garney+Dec 4 2007, 11:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Garney @ Dec 4 2007, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Dec 2 2007, 08:16 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Garney

@Dec 2 2007, 09:09 PM
Harchibald doesnt find much off the bridle. Wouldnt need to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. However, he would beat the type of Katchit on all courses under all conditions hard on the snaff. Just too much ability.

That has yet to be proved.

That still could also be proved to be " Akin to the Ollie Magern better than old plodder Beef or Salmon remarks".

ShadowLeader,

Can I just ask you one question? Earlier, you said the above.

I dont really understand what you said. Apologies for that, and I am sorry for going back on it, but is it you think it still has to be proved that Ollie Magern isnt as good as old plodder Beef or Salmon. I'm pretty sure it was 2 years ago (after his first Charlie Hall win) but maybe you think the jury is still out on that. Again, apologies if I misundestood.

I just want to get a timeframe when we could expect to see a resolution to this Katchit debate, and whether you were right or wrong about him.

I think he is a bony little horse, and would hope he continues to progress. He has improved from last year but to me looks exposed as below top class, and doesnt deserve to second fav for the Champion hurdle. [/b][/quote]
Garney, it's not hard to understand!

You had already got the digs in about a years old argument in an attempt to tell me that any assertion that Katchit is a good horse is clearly as ridiculous as comments about Beef Or Salmon.

Ergo I was pointing out to you that your assertion that Harchibald "would beat the type of Katchit on all courses under all conditions hard on the snaff. Just too much ability" could, quite equally, end up looking as ridiculous as you are painting me out to be.

Just a thought.

As for Bobbyjo, why no-one [ie moderators] ever says anything to him about his increasingly regular alcohol fuelled, highly arrogant and disgustingly rude rants and personal insults at 4am in the morning is completely beyond me. How anyone can take an alleged professional seriously when that is his modus operandi is beyond my comprehension.

Oh, but apologies, he's a genius who has never been wrong in his life so it is his God given right to say what he wants to whom he wants, isn't it? :brows:

 

[Garney]

Garney, it's not hard to understand!

You had already got the digs in about a years old argument in an attempt to tell me that any assertion that Katchit is a good horse is clearly as ridiculous as comments about Beef Or Salmon.

Ergo I was pointing out to you that your assertion that Harchibald "would beat the type of Katchit on all courses under all conditions hard on the snaff. Just too much ability" could, quite equally, end up looking as ridiculous as you are painting me out to be.

Your assertion was that Harchibald couldnt be trusted. I said that that it was lazy and wrong to say so. I happen to think that he barely stays 2m. And Cheltenham doesnt really suit him. We will see. Your remarks about Harchibald were as wrong as thinking Ollie Magern being better than BoS. It didnt really have much to do with Katchit, but you seemed to claim that winning four juvenile hurdles would be better than being beaten a head in a champion hurdle. The Katchit shenanigans came afterwards.

I raised the issue again as I was under the impression from your repsonse that you still thought that Ollie Magern could possibly be better than Beef or Salmon. At least you havent descended to that level of farce.

 

[Colin Phillips]

Shads, Gareth has edited one of Bobbyjo's posts.

 

[uncle goober]

he's a genius who has never been wrong in his life so it is his God given right to say what he wants to whom he wants, isn't it?

Clearly confusing bobbyjo with me there, you arent helping matters.