Five Live Programme on Racing

Gamla Stan

At the Start
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Aug 19, 2005
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Very interesting discussion show concentrating on making racing more popular with the wider public given racing is one of the best attended sports out there but that most attendees only go once a year.

A good mix of panelists with racing and non racing journalists to get a "what stops you from going racing more" aspect from the non-racing lot as well as input from Mick Fitzgerald and Dandy Nicholls.

Main points were that there was no problem with the big racing events but racing wasn't publicised well with no figureheads or exciting climaxes like in other sports such as football etc. The non racing guy made points including why can't horses run more regularly (Usain Bolt runs every week for example), no loyalty to the jockeys and horses etc. Basically said there needs to be a league system or some form of competition for the horses and jockeys. Also touched up on the morality of racing (Henderson, Lynch & Williams and comparisons to Athletics).

I think the fact that one panelist said that he'd never been to Nottingham or Southwell but goes to Cheltenham every year just goes to show how there's too much shite racing rather than there's a problem. The programme actually made me change my position, I think racing needs Beeching style reforms to get the mundane day to day shite out of the arena and build the sport around the top level.

Plenty to discuss anyway. :D
 
I reckon there'll be a lot of Athletics fans amazed that it's being held up as a positive example for another sport :lol:
 
I thought some of the points made were awful, one was that flat racing ends for a lot of people at the end of june. I remember watching the Arc in 1986 and this was before I was a racing fan, I just watched it because it was on. And because Dancing Brave was a British horse taking on the French I wanted him to win. No one even mentioned the Breeders Cup. Here you had last year a British horse going to the States, finally meeting the septics on a level playing field, beating them and then the Americans whinging like feck. That is gold to the average Brit. And yet there was hardly any coverage of it.

It's all about identity, look at the Ashes. As a spectacle it's pretty average. But it's England against the Aussies. And that's what counts.
 
I think there does need to be a better end to the flat season domestically but it's hard to fit in around the Arc, Breeders Cup and with the Autumn weather.
 
Look forward to hearing the show later on....for the sakes of a constructive thread, it would be interesting to hear what people would actually do themselves to improve the sport rather than just rubbish any suggestions that come from such programmes or the like.
 
The programme was a nice idea but failed because they wheel out the same old has beens to appear on it. Does any research department not realise there are people in racing that are far more informed and entertaining that McCririck.

They have on David Hood and ask him some wishy washy questions yet completely failed to address the fact that bookmakers are actively encouraging their customers to bet on other products than racing because they are more profitable for them.
 
I think there does need to be a better end to the flat season domestically but it's hard to fit in around the Arc, Breeders Cup and with the Autumn weather.

I think the Autumn is an embarrassment of riches, to be honest. Have a look at this weekend - what's the big race? I think there's one Group 3 and not a single heritage handicap. Middle of July. Barmy.
 
About three quarters of the way through. I've had McCririck give a party political broadcast on behalf of his employers at ATR, and now I'm being told that everything being geared towards Cheltenham in NH is a good thing. Struggling here...
 
I quite liked the idea of a jockeys league table, and trying to promote the human aspect by way of brand recognition. Horses, especially on the flat only tend to have 2 or 3 seasons max, where as jockeys can go on for 25 years. If you asked people to name 10 famous horses, the chances are they'd give you at least 8 who were NH horses as their shelf life is longer. If you ask them to then name 10 famous jockeys, they'd probably give you 8 from the flat? So there must be an angle here?

It revolves around the idea that you'd have two divisions of jockeys, who would be required to ride at say 3 meetings every week (similar to the Athletics grand prix or a motor sport structure). These meetings could be shared around the lesser tracks and rotated in much the same way as Sky would love to feature the big 4 football teams every week but are contractually bound to take so many matches by way of minimum during a season from less glamorous clubs.

In an ideal world (though you'd never get this to happen) you'd like jockeys to adopt their own silks (kit if you like) and I don't see why you couldn't have a yellow jersey, or green jersey type thing either (not sure how "king of the mountains" would work though!!!). Another ideal scenario would involve jockeys being drawn on to horses at random aka Shergar Cup but somehow I don't see that being too popular with owners either. Might be interesting to see who came out on top mind you. Is it not the case in showjumping that you ride your own horse, and are then drawn to ride a competitors at random (or something like that?). I suppose the answer is to make 50% of the races random by way of compromise?

You'd have 2 divisions of 10 I suspect with 3 up and 3 down, with monthly prizes or bonuses thrown in. You'd probably need to conjure up a points system that tried to create an artifically contrived close finish (possibly allowing you to 'drop' so many bad results). Or have two seasons during the one calender season. May to July - August to October, which might make it closer.

Still there's plenty to get your teeth stuck into here by way of thinking out the 'blue sky' possibilities;)
 
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Look forward to hearing the show later on....for the sakes of a constructive thread, it would be interesting to hear what people would actually do themselves to improve the sport rather than just rubbish any suggestions that come from such programmes or the like.

Was thinking the same Aidan, slagging off the programme and the opinions of some of the usual suspects is too easy. I'm sure if we had a cyber brainstorm we could do better. We are afterall 300 'active members' strong plus another 500 or so lurking
 
Well, first of all, we need to stop talking about the bulk of the sport - which is the raison d'etre for this and all other racing forums - as 'shite'. Sorry if you think it is, but it doesn't do the image and substance of racing any good at all to talk about it like that. If that were the case, then there's crap athletics, crap tennis, and one huge pile of silage which is lower-rung football. So let's drop the whining about 'betting-shop fodder'.

Some basics: SIS pays racecourse at least £4K PER RACE to show the races in all betting shops. Ergo, some racecourses barely need a gate intake to just get along. Perhaps that answers one of the most FAQs about Towcester: they can let people in free, because they're cushioned by the SIS payments and, possibly, by renting out their real estate for Any Other Business - which is what most courses must do to avoid being turned into Tudorbethan housing estates. So, cut the 'shite' out of racing, and most courses would collapse overnight, because they'd halve their cards and therefore their picture fees. You don't have to watch it, you don't have to bet on it, so if you want to remain an elitist punter, then just stick to the better races. Then it won't annoy you.

It seems to me that one needs to break down the issue of attracting a wider audience into finding out what racegoers actually want. To do that, each course should canvass as many racegoers as it can, since courses are diverse in terms of catchment area, disposable income of their patrons, number of meetings per year, etc.:

Do they want just a 'fun' day out now and then?

Do they want to go racing a lot more, perhaps because they're now retired, and have more free time?

Do they want to be involved a bit more, by joining racing clubs or syndicates? If so, how much would they be prepared to spend?

Do they want to be full owners of a horse or horses - and again, how much could they invest?

There's little point of honking on about buying a racehorse if your interest is just to have a fun day, perhaps with a bunch of mates or the family, once or twice a year - perhaps for birthdays, stag/hen parties, etc., or a work outing. So, once you've got X number of people saying they'd just like fun racing, then develop that theme:

What would you like on your day's racing? The list could be endless, but lets say we start with:

...An entrance fee of £5, all one enclosure
...An entrance fee from £10, with two or more enclosures, giving more elite areas in some
...A wide range of food and drink outlets (restaurant, bistro, cafe, mobile food vans)
...Basic bars, and a limited number of fast-food type amenities
...Plenty of activities for the kids, such as funfair, pony rides, other amusements
...Not interested in kids' facilities
...Disabled and creche facilities
...Special packages, inc. entry, card, a drink, betting voucher, racecourse tour
...Free transport to/from nearest railway station
...Adjacent to rail and bus services
...Other on-course or adjacent amenities such as a hotel/casino/golf club/leisure club
and racing/leisure packages
...On-course shop with assorted merchandise
...A range of competitions throughout the meeting - a lucky draw, betting comp, best-dressed lady/man, etc.
...Pre-racing tipsters

Anyway, you get the gist of it. From there, you know what the 'fun' racing public wants from its day out, and can pitch more to that if those are the majority results.

If they want to go racing more, then what would appeal most:

...Annual membership, basic
...Annual membership with additional privileges, such as: dedicated parking, inclusive race cards, dedicated bar, outings (to yards, studs, other courses), reciprocal meetings, etc.
...In the case of dual-purpose courses, Flat AM only, or NH AM only

Returning racing to Ye Goode Olde Days of top - or at least regular quality - races and meetings is reactionary, I'm afraid. Anyone thinking that Dundalk and Ffos Las (and the well-intended Great Leighs) isn't the future of racing is living in 1958. With 60 operating courses, the UK needs all the nags it can get - Ireland has a plethora of them and nobody really cares whether the card's stuffed with Class 5 and 6 contenders, because each race is still a betting opportunity. However, as far as the 'fun' racegoer is concerned, it's of considerably less interest to them that a horse is rated 0-60 than it is just having a nice day out, free from the humdrum and banal, and going home perhaps £4 up on the day.

Believe it or not - and this is aimed particularly at stay-at-home punters - most people who go racing go for a nice day out, not to paddock-pick, not to try doing their own sectionals, not to dispute the Clerk's going stick as more like 8.2 than 7.8. Such exotica are in very, very much the minority, and - judging from their postings on various forums - also very, very much the minority in actually going racing. So, there's no point at all in pitching a more elitist, quality-loaded, fined-down calendar at them, because they don't put money into racecourses. They put their money into betting, and thus by default into the Levy, but they don't help racecourses to survive by staying at home and doing their critiquing from their Laz-ee-Boys.

In essence, there's no one thing which is 'racing' - courses are too individual to be thought of as one lumpen clod. Horses are specialists, too - there are those who would no more want to run round Epsom than set fire to their tails, so there's little point in thinking that scaling back at X course means more good runners at Y. It doesn't, and it won't.

Anyway, it's an absurd time and I must get some zzzzzs in before Lingfield tomorrow.
 
As Warbler and Krizon put it so well. Promote the personalities within the sport - horses, jockeys or trainers. Get people to take an interest in their progress through the season and let the public see that racing is not just "horses running around a field" but a terrific spectacle and is actually rather interesting.

Stop putting the lower grade racing down as "shite" and promote the regular runners as "personalities". "Can so-and-so do it again?" (Even if it only means ducking out of winning to become a serial loser like good old Quixall Crossett.)

Encourage people to form their own opinions by giving them the basic information regarding racing terms and form and how it applies to their selection. Self-esteem is important, even on a once-a-year day out. If the experience is a good one, they will repeat it.

I found a champion hurdle winner in a "shite" race at Stratford and followed him in every race, right the way up to the big one. Just think what that would do for a novice racegoer's estimation of the sport.
 
I'm afraid "Bill & Ben" are more likely to find the horse they bet last time out (having its 3rd run and where the jockey resembled a corpse) has just improved 40 lengths having had the life thrashed out of it after being gambled from 12/1 into 9/2.

Don't waste your time. Let the game die. The largely corrupt snobs associated with it are determined to suck it dry.
 
See 13:40 Uttoxeter A. E. Jones and Secret Dancer for a fine example of what is wrong with British racing (see also Mr Jones previous runners and winners and betting patterns)
 
The programme was a nice idea but failed because they wheel out the same old has beens to appear on it. Does any research department not realise there are people in racing that are far more informed and entertaining that McCririck.

They have on David Hood and ask him some wishy washy questions yet completely failed to address the fact that bookmakers are actively encouraging their customers to bet on other products than racing because they are more profitable for them.

Excellent post, dj.

At the start of the Kieren F inquiry, a BBC researcher phoned me and asked my opinion. I gave it to them straight - along lines HT would have been proud of - and invited them to get back in touch any time if they wanted more in the way of my views. They never did.

Not only is MCririck the very antithesis of the image we should be projecting of racing, he's also working hard on behalf of bookmakers.

No broadcaster should ever allow someone like David Hood on to our screens. Bookmakers run racing and are profiting heavily from it. The last thing they want is a better deal for customers.

I accept the argument that 'shite' racing is necessary. I opt not to watch it or pay to go and see it but a day at the races can be a nice day out. Our problem is the expense of it.

Going into Joe Pesci/Leo Getz mode (Lethal Weapon)...

They f*ck you in the car park!
They f*ck you at the entry gate!
They f*ck you for a racecard!
They f*ck you at the food counter!
They f*ck you in the betting market!
They f*ck you in the stewards room!
 
Some basics: SIS pays racecourse at least £4K PER RACE to show the races in all betting shops. Ergo, some racecourses barely need a gate intake to just get along. Perhaps that answers one of the most FAQs about Towcester: they can let people in free, because they're cushioned by the SIS payments and, possibly, by renting out their real estate for Any Other Business

How much did Paul Ritchie pay you for that little plug?! :lol: You seem to have forgotten the existence of TurfTV Kri; they're the ones with the better quality courses than the ones SiS has and they pay more per race! :D
 
Shadz - sorry, dearie, I'm only going by what I knew a couple of years back, and I'm not - unlike your goodself - privy to who's who (Ritchie, Paul - who he?) in that area. Some smallish courses really don't even need a paying gate to keep going, though, with those guaranteed funds.

Honest Tom - yeah, and then what will you do to amuse yourself, dearie? Bet on the dogs (there won't be any tracks around in 10 years the way Coral's denuding them)? Don't think so. Chuck your money onto poker games and tennis? You'll only say they're fixed, too, you know you will!

Mrussell - come on, then, have at it!! The forum - like most forums - thinks it can do better than pretty much anyone else - race planning, Clerk of the Coursing, riding racehorses, training them, stewarding, running a raceday, world without end - so aren't we going to show lookers-in how much better we could run all of racing?? Never mind the BHA - let's see how the THHA would do it!
 
Agree with some of your points Kri and there is always a place for the lower reaches of the sport but in racing, the lower grade fare is far too close to the top level.

For example, Premier Admission on King George Day at Ascot is £35.23 if you buy in advance. Now whether you think that itself is too much, it's not a bad deal given how much other sporting events are in the UK. People will be prepared to pay £35 to see the best horses like Conduit etc. in a race of prestige like the King George

Today at Bath, Premier Admission is £20 where the best horse on display is The Tatling. The difference in class just doesn't match the difference in price. I've not been to Bath but I imagine the facilities on offer for the average joe are considerably less than at Ascot (I've now realised I've shot myself in the foot with using Ascot as an example given it's laid out like the Crystal Maze meets Wetherspoons) but you get the idea.

There is too much racing and whilst I don't think culling racing at one track will improve racing at another, I think it will help concentrate efforts on getting punters into courses for the right reasons.
 
I agree, GS - there certainly IS too much racing, and it's about time that the powers-that-be realises that.

The thing is that it is all distributed wrongly; for example at this time of year try finding a bumper south of Perth! From memory, there were about three run south of Perth in the last three or four weeks. Novice hurdles and bumpers are attracting bumper entries and having to divide; the plethora of juvenile hurdles/novice chases on offer are attracting 10 at entry stage and having fields in single figures whilst horses are being balloted out of novice hurdles and bumpers. I appreciate that it is not the NH season proper but the same is happening on the flat.

Places like Kempton are attracting smaller fields and if you look like a track like Epsom, it is fielding cards of 4, 5, 6 and 7 runner races despite having beautiful ground. Of course a lot of this is down to the amount of non-runners which is an issue that IMO should be addressed, and soon. Especially since self certification, the levels of non-runners are going through the roof. 48 hour decs are a lot to blame, but the going doesn't change in 48 hours at Kempton, yet there is still often 8 nrs per meeting. Salisbury is dreadful for non-runners, the ground is nearly always firm or firm in places - it doesn't change, certainly not from declaration stage to day of race - yet they tend to have 10+ non-runners at every meeting as a matter of course.
 
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