Fox Hunting

dvds2000

dvds2000

Gone But Not Forgotten
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May 1, 2003
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Without weighing up the fors or againsts, surely dumpng a horse, cow and 2 rotting calves in the street, then hammering a stake through the horses is going to turn people against it?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17...1283914,00.html



(BTW after the last one went a bit OTT I'll close this thread if it decends into a slanging match - it's just to see if people will think this is a good way to protest or not :) )
 
I'll tell you what I think

I think your point would be just as valid without displaying that picture
 
Why is anyone surprised?

It is the same Farming Community that spread the foot & mouth around just to gain financially only a couple of years ago.

Not that the whole of the farming industry are at it,just a small percentage.

Any sympathy that i may have had for them has disappeared.

Bring back Hanging,the Birch,clap them in irons,burn them at the stake,or,even better,take the bloody Euro money off them.





:D
 
Depends on your sensibilities, I suppose.. a dead horse is no different to a dead cow or a fish with a hook through its mouth..

However, if hunt kennels do disappear, there is going to be a lot of deadstock on the ground, needing to be disposed of.

And just imagine the following..... your kid's beloved pony has to be put down or dies. If you use a commercial haulier to collect your animal (as you are not allowed to bury it), you will be waiting up to three days (or more) for it to be despatched - believe me, that is the norm at the moment for on farm deadstock to be collected around here. The hunt, especially in cases of much loved ponies etc, in general would be round that day - especially if they hunt over your land or you are a supporter - it's very much part of how Hunt Servants see their duty to be.

Apart from the costs involved (£750+ haulier inc incineration - free if Hunt or at most £50) it's not exactly a pleasant sight for children in anybody's book (and the photo above wouldn't be a sensible move in my view either).

As for being locked up - what crap, James.. they haven't committed a crime, just brought to the forefront (crudely I agree, there was no need for the stake) a very real problem in deadstock disposal that simply hasn't been addressed because so many people are living in la-la land over this particular aspect.

And going back to the issue of democratic decisions, it is interesting to note that the majority of pro-hunting MPs live in rural constituencys - Jackie Ballard in fact lost her seat here in Taunton precisely on this issue alone. So the continual allegations that the majority of countryside dwellers are opposed to hunting doesn't stack up - there would indeed appear to be a divide in many areas.

PS - And that's all I'm going to contribute on this subject you'll be relieved to hear, as Col is right when he says it could descend into another slanging match - we're never all going to agree on it, so what's the point. It's just like unlike most of the rest of you on here, I am directly affected as the Hunt collect any deadstock we have and it's a valued service which I am going to be sorry to lose.
 
I find the picture disgusting and extremely upsetting (for me anyway) and should never have been used. As for dumping a dead horse in the road during a protest I also find it highly offensive whatever my views are on hunting. I would no more want to see a horse with a stake through it's heart (or any other animal) than I would a human being whatever the cause I was protesting against. Someone has got this badly wrong in my view. Just think of what happened if others copied this example with even more distasteful examples of carcasses being displayed in such a cruel and heartless way. Very much an own goal in my view.
 
Erm I won't bore you JUlie but I can think of quite a few crimes they have committed under The Highways Act and Public Health legislation for a start - people who treat animals with such contempt are deserving of nothing but contempt . I wonder whose poor horse that is ? Once loved, and ridden perhaps

What would any of us think if that were one of our animals

They are scum


Col as lots of people are upset by it I have removed the picture if you don't mind
 
I disagree with the ban on hunting as it is a way of life and social sport for a large minority of people.

Were a government to decide football should be banned, no doubt the protests would be a bit more disruptive than what we have seen from the pro-hunt community.

However, the shocking picture of a dead horse with a stake going through it does draw attention to their cause. That said, had they taken the initial threat to hunting more seriously and employed a PR specialist to defuse the public's negative image of them and their sport, they may now not be in this apparently terminal situation.
 
Oh please how can fox hunting and football we compared - the latter does not involve a dumb terrified animal being chased to exhuastion and torn to bits.

Except when the press were trying to get Graham Taylor sacked of course
 
Originally posted by dvds2000@Sep 28 2004, 04:07 PM
Without weighing up the fors or againsts, surely dumpng a horse, cow and 2 rotting calves in the street, then hammering a stake through the horses is going to turn people against it?
Click to expand...
Today pro-hunting lost the support they required to have any chance of suceeding.

Bye bye pro-hunting, time to become dinosaurs.Today actions were your choice.
:ph34r:
 
Personally, I thought it entirely inevitable that carcasses would be dumped - if not here, then outside No.10, to make the sensible point about kennels retrieving and disposing of (by the hounds eating) deadstock. I expect that some exasperated people, farmers or not, will eventually give up supporting horse-riding if every time a horse passes away, they have to pay a haulier what is often more than the cost of the pony or horse.

I asked this question earlier: what would the Government put in place of hunt kennels to retrieve and 'process' deadstock, once it had succeeded in getting rid of what is obviously an essential rural service.

Perhaps some of you are suffering from Attention Deficit Disorder and can't remember that hundreds of local animal crematoria were closed down by Labour, in order to 'centralize and improve the quality' of the incineration of dead animals? Now carcasses have to be hauled sometimes across two or three counties before being burned. Of course, when it suited DEFRA to pile up two storeys of rotten cows and set fire to them in their thousands, that was okay - absolutely no public health risk, ha, ha. Who doesn't enjoy the impact of hydrocarbons on their lungs? But try doing a bit of quiet 'home cremation' and see where it lands you - in the dock.

Once the no-hunting Bill is ratified, expect to see dead animals littering your rural highways, and being fly-tipped like old sofas, or buried secretly, to pollute the water table. People can't afford to transport them in the way that kitty-lovers can simply put Tinky in a little cage and pop him into the back of the Volvo for a trip to the vet.

Wild animal parks and zoos only have so much demand for horses and other deadstock offered to them. They will accept them and butcher them themselves, but they don't need every dead novice hurdler and seasonal batch of aborted calves.

Just like the invasion of Iraq - this is another self-praising exercise that hasn't been thought through to its' potential consequences.
 
krizon.
Why should hunting stop?

The hunt can still go ahead,in two ways.

1. The hunt can still cull the Fox and other elderly wild life in exactly the same way as before,without the hounds,The farmer will let the hunt on their land to do the culling.

2, The hunt can be conducted chasing a scent. The farmer allows the hunt on his land,the hunt has some fun and the dogs get excercised.

In return the Hunt gets rid of dead stock the way it does at present.

The point has been made on this thread that only the sick lame and lazy get culled.
Therefore,it would seem that the speed of these animals would be so blunted,that even the most Geriatric of Hunters would be able keep up.

It might be wise to drink after the cull rather than before though.
 
Derek, I'm actually responding to Colin's question as to whether the dumping of animal carcasses was a good way to protest or not, not the mores and mechanics of keeping hunting going. My own thought is that it was an entirely PREDICTABLE way to protest the impending closure of hunt kennels.

It makes the point that without thousands of carcasses being eaten by hounds, and the service being free, then tens of thousands of pounds in collection and incineration fees will have to be found. These fees won't come just from farmers, they'll have to come from racing and riding stables, from private horse owners, animal sanctuaries, rescue centres, etc.

The Government closed down hundreds of small crematoria which would have been easily accessible to such organizations, in the event of there being no kennels to provide the disposal service. Do you know if it's put into place a substitute that will/can cope with the loss of both the licensed crematoria AND the kennels?

The alternatives to hunting foxes with hounds are trapping, shooting, gassing and poisoning, all of which will occur once the Bill has passed. Foxes are not going to be 'saved' from, in some cases, appalling deaths just because hunts are shut down. I imagine there will be a rise in cruel trapping, which none of us will see or know about, but for the folks who will feel good about hunts being consigned to history, out of sight is presumably out of mind. I understand why some people would like to see hunting stopped, but I wonder if they think that foxes are going to gambol happily forever, in a Turneresque sunset, and not still be killed by one method or another? None of which guarantee instant despatch, none of which guarantee the halt, diseased and elderly foxes only die, none of which guarantee that other species will not be trapped or poisoned.
 
And if they get rid of hunting this will happen a hell of a lot more, I dont know how many people will be able to fork out nearly a grand to have their horse/pony/cattle disposed of humanly. Tony Blair admitted to pro-hunters he didnt know what happened to fallen stock.

Today we saw Gaelic Park, who broke down and was later put down. By tomorrow he will be hound food at the South Durham kennels, the quickest and most efficent way of disposal, unless you all want to start horsey graveyards somewhere
 
Oh, God, how terrible!!! Townies actually being shown what is going to happen!!! For fuxake, just because you can't see it happen doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen!!! I can see exactly why they've done this; to provoke the reaction that has ensued. THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF HUNTING IS BANNED. Horses, animals, will be put down and there will be very few means with which to dispose of carcasses. For chrissake, wise up will you all????? I would have been at Brighton today if I wasn't flying out at 4pm & I'm gutted I wasn't there to lend my support. It is a breach of civil liberties to ban hunting, as well as a tragedy for the countryside, and the urban areas too. I'd love to see all these cityfolk putting up with foxes in their dustbins, fighting with their cats/dogs or whatever, eating their pet rabbits, when they fox population explodes as it will do.
 
What, if it is banned suddenly there will be loads of horses all over the countryside with stakes sticking out of them saying 'If you ban hunting there will be lots of these'?
It was more the 'hammered a stake through a dead horse' I was wanting to know about rather than the pro's and cons of hunting (a subject I know little about if I'm honest).

I'm sorry, but I don't have a view on if it should be banned or not, but i cannot see them getting extra support by doing what they did today. Seeing what has been written here so far I can understand why they dunped dead animals but to stick a lump of wood in one with a poster on? It's a bit like the 'fathers for justice' campaign. How can we get get support? I know, climb up bridges and cause maximum traffic jams at rush hour pi$$ing everyone off. Sort of backfires i think :(
 
I personally wouldn't desecrate an animal's memory by hammering a stake through it, of course. I imagine the person who did that was in a state of extreme anger and did it for the shock value, and in that they have succeeded. I don't think what they did will change anyone's mind if they've already got it made up one way or the other. The Countryside Alliance deny involvement, but it's obviously been done by someone who knows what a service kennels do for deadstock.

I'd be interested to hear what suggestions forumites have for alternatives, given that you can't bury or burn your own dead stock, and that the cost of DEFRA-sanctioned systems are far too expensive en masse. Re-open the closed crematoria? Start up a special Govt. department specifically to remove deadstock? Subsidise the cost of conveying one's dead to the nearest incinerator? Permit on-the-farm cremations wherever possible?
 
Shadow Leader, your rantings against the "Townies" just continues to make the hunting issue a class one, which it clearly isn't. I have absolutely no problem with protesters getting their point over in a visual way, but what happened yesterday was despicable. I am fairly use to seeing dead animals, but there were children around, and not everyone is familiar to seeing a lovely animal displayed in such an inhumane way. I think even some adults may have had nightmares after witnessing such a scene. A dead horse with a stake through its body is a horrendous way to hammer any argument across, and I cannot believe people could agree that it was. If dead horses are OK to display, what next, a row of badly mutilated sheep, and throw in a few fox heads & recently mutilated limbs for good measure? I may be in the minority but I think it was wrong.
 
it seems the only justification that the hunt lobby have for their cause is a perceived notion that all their opponents live in towns and they have 100 per cent support from countrypeople they dont its just more disinformation and lies they put out

now they are hunting foxes so towns and cities wont be overrun with foxes what next they want to reintoduce badger baiting to stop london beiong overun with badgers


scrape the barrel lads


but what happened yesterday was despicable
Click to expand...

yes the countryside alliance are quite despicable
 
There are a couple of points that I would like to ask if anyone reading this knows about concerning yesterday's protest.

If, as indicated by the Today programme this morning, the animals were 'slaughtered and dumped' in situ at Brighton, then that is indeed an illegal action and certainly wouldn't get my support. I genuinely don't know whether or not this was true. If the animals were humanely destroyed on farm and then dumped, fair enough - the point about fallen stock desparetely needs to be made (I still don't agree with the stake/poster issue - that was entirely unecessary). If they were despatched in public then that is unacceptable as the animals would have suffered unnecessary stress - it will be simple to identify the culprits as long as the tags etc are still in place - even if they aren't, 'losing' cattle isn't at all easy these days and it shouldn't be too difficult to follow it up with a view to prosecution.

However, if they weren't slaughtered in situ, then that makes the R4 Today reporting misinformed and downright imflammatory - it was bad enough listening to last Saturday morning's edition of the Country programme - the presenter was so biased it was painful to listen to. She was perfectly entitled to her views in private but she was meant to be presenting both sides of the argument in an unbiased way and failed miserably. That isn't acceptable.
 
Once again, some excellent points from Songsheet & Krizon, both detached from emotion and with some thought and reasoning behind their views.

I worked in a hunt kennels as a holiday job when I was 14, looking after their horses. The smell of rotting flesh was horrendous but it did show to me a very efficient way of waste disposal. Carcasses are collected daily, the animals skinned (skins go off to leather trade, so you'd better remove those cheap leather shoes you are wearing at present), bones, horn etc goes off to glue factory and the flesh gets eaten by the hounds. It is also a place where vets can carry out post mortems at the request of the farmer rather than in the confines of a town practice.

I think the point of using a horse as well, was to make more of an emotive impact - most people do not have as much sympathy with a cow or sheep, but a horse is seen as a pet and as a nation we do anthropomorphisise (no idea on spelling) them. How would people have reacted if it had been a picture of a cow?

If the general public are upset over the site of a few large, dead animals then they had better get used to it as has been pointed out, dead animals will be dumped as in flytipping simply because farmers will not be able to afford to fork out large amounts.

I think we mollycoddle kids too much these days so they are way too squeamish about death and don't really understand what goes on when anything dies, so consequently everything is perceived as cruel. Quite honestly, there are far worse scenes on the tv in horror movies/playstation games, which plenty of underage kids gleefully watch. I watched a tv programme a few weeks ago about school-life in the 60s and the girls were asked to kill, pluck, gut & cook a chicken. At first they were horrified but eventually coped and did an excellent job. They all admitted that they felt it was an experience that taught them much about where the food they ate came from and the processes that got it there.

While we are on the subject of taboo deaths - why do we stand for Hallal meat? Just so we can abide by the laws of racism and not upset those who wish to slit the throats of live animals so they can bleed them out until they die. But that's ok, since its all done for religion and not class.
 
Why not withdraw British troops from Iraq and replace them with a new peace keeping force comprising all of the pro-hunting lobby and their hounds who are allegedly facing extinction (apparently, in the countryside, if you're at a momentary loss for something to give your dog to do - you shoot it immediately). :lol:

It gives the hunters and hounds the same alleged ''fighting chance'' that foxes have had off them for donkeys years and neatly solves both problems. :lol:
 
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